What is Socialism?
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LBird wrote:I ask you why should a text authored by Engels, which has on the cover Engels’s name alone, be simply assumed to be in concert with Marx’s ideas?
For the record…The following excerpts from the letters of Marx and Engels published in the Marx Engels Collected Works Volume 45 (1874–79) revealMarx’s involvement with Engels’s anti-Dühring — being a division-of-labour role reversal in which it was Marx’s turn to encourage a reluctant Engels for a change.Marx’s stake in the outcome of Engels’s anti-Dühring — Marx’s reputation was on the line (as it had been when Marx spent/wasted a year attacking Karl Vogt to save his reputation), and so too was the perceived course of then-‘socialist’ politics.Marx’s recommendation of, and endorsement of, the contents of Engels’s anti-Dühring as “very important for a true appreciation of German Socialism”.Marx himself kept up with the sciences in the free time between his economic studies, but on certain scientific matters he deferred to Engels’s studies and judgement, and on organic chemistry to their mutual friend Karl Schorlemmer.Regarding the socialist content of Engels’s anti-Dühring Marx had ample opportunity, during those two horrible years that Engels was compelled to devote himself to that unenviable task, to critique and suggest modifications to a compliant Engels to change anything in anti-Dühring that he substantially disagreed with.Source DocumentsEngels to Marx — 24 May 1876Dear Moor …Obviously, these people [the Dühringians] imagine that Dühring, by his scurrilous onslaughts upon you [Marx], has rendered himself invulnerable vis-à-vis ourselves [Marx and Engels] for, if we make fun of Dühring’s theoretical nonsense, it will look as though we are doing it out of revenge…!… Your F. E.Marx to Engels — 25 May 1876Dear Fred …If we are obliged to adopt a ‘position vis-à-vis these gentlemen [the Dühringians]’ we can do so only by criticising Dühring without any compunction. …Dühring systematically flatters these louts [the Dühringians] — something they can’t complain of us doing…. Your K. MarxEngels to Marx — 28 May 1876Dear Moor …It’s all very well for you to talk. You can lie in a warm bed — study Russian agrarian relations in particular and rent in general without anything to interrupt you—but I have to sit on a hard bench, drink cold wine, and all of a sudden drop everything else and break a lance with the tedious Dühring. However, it can’t be helped, I suppose, even if it means letting myself in for a controversy to which there is no foreseeable end; ….[Dühring] has a whole chapter in which his future society, his so-called ‘free society’. … He has already laid down a syllabus for the primary and secondary schools of the future. Here, then, one finds platitudinousness in an even simpler form than in the political economy …Liebknecht [editor of the party journal Volksstaat] has thus put me in the position of having to remind myself that, compared with the theoretical bunglers on the Volksstaat, Dühring is at least an educated man, and that his opera are better at any rate than the products of these subjectively and objectively obscure gentlemen. …For the rest, I console myself here with Dühring's philosophy — never before has anyone written such arrant rubbish. Windy platitudes—nothing more, interspersed with utter drivel, but the whole thing dressed up, not without skill, for a public with which the author is thoroughly familiar—a public that wants by means of beggar’s soup and little effort to lay down the law about everything. The man is as if cut out for the socialism and philosophy of the milliards era. …Your F. E.Marx to Wilhelm Liebknecht — 7 October 1876Dear Library [onomatopoeic nickname for Liebknecht] …You have reported that Marx (something I, Marx, would never dream of doing) was going to take issue with Mr Dühring. …Engels is busy with his work on Dühring. It entails a considerable sacrifice on his part, as he had to break off an incomparably more important piece of work [Dialectics of Nature] to that end….Your MoorEngels to Ludwig Kugelmann — 20 October 1876 Dear Kugelmann …Just now I’m writing a work on Mr Dühring for the Vorwärts in Leipzig. For this purpose I need the review of Capital which you sent to Marx in March 1868 and which, if I’m not mistaken, was published by Dühring. Marx simply can no longer find it.If you can’t find it, you should, under no circumstances, write to Dühring about it, for the slightest—even if indirect—contact with the man and, still more, the very slightest service rendered by him would impair my freedom of criticism in a matter in which I should preserve it to the utmost…. Your F. EngelsEngels to Johann Philipp Becker — 20 November 1876Dear Becker, …The Vorwärts will shortly be publishing a critique of Dühring by me. They had pestered me dreadfully before I took on this disagreeable task—disagreeable because the man is blind so that the contest is unequal, and yet the chap’s colossal arrogance precludes my taking that into account…. Your F. EngelsEngels to Wilhelm Liebknecht — 9 January 1877Dear Liebknecht …And should they complain of my tone, I trust you will not forget to confront them with the tone adopted by Mr Dühring vis-à-vis Marx and his other precursors, and more particularly with the fact that I substantiate, and in detail at that, whereas Dühring merely calumniates and abuses his precursors…. Your F. E.Marx to Engels — 3 March 1877Dear Fred …Lavrov has praised your anti-Dühring articles, though one (i.e., he) ‘is unaccustomed to such gentleness in Engels’s polemics’…. Your K. MarxMarx to Engels — 5 March 1877Dear Fred …Dühringiana ¹ enclosed. I found it impossible to read the fellow without belabouring him constantly and at some length. Now, having thus familiarised myself with him (and the section from Ricardo onwards, which I’ve not yet read, must contain many exquisite pearls), a task that required patience and a club ready to hand, I shall in future be capable of enjoying him in tranquillity.Once one sees how the laddie’s mind works, so that one really gets the hang of his method, he proves to be a fairly entertaining SCRIBBLER. Meanwhile, what with my catarrh and consequent irritability, he has done me yeoman service by providing a secondary ‘occupation’…. Your Moor⁽¹⁾ Enclosed in Marx’s letter to Engels of 5 March 1877 were Marx’s Randnoten zu Dührings Kritische Geschichte der Nationalökonomie. Engels used this as the basis for Chapter X, ‘From Kritische Geschichte’, of Part II of his Anti-Dühring.Marx to Engels — 7 March 1877Dear Fred …[Here follows a long letter discussing Hume, the Physiocrats, productive labour and the superficial ‘economist’ Herr Dühring.]… Your K. M.Marx to Wilhelm Bracke — 11 April 1877Dear Bracke …Engels is very dissatisfied with the way in which the Vorwärts is printing his anti-Dühring piece.First they forced him into doing it, and now they pay not the slightest heed to the terms of the contract. At election time, when no one did any reading, his articles were simply used to fill up space; next, they print short, disjointed fragments, one fragment one week, another a fortnight or three weeks later, which means that readers (working men in particular) lose the thread.Engels wrote, admonishing Liebknecht. He believes that this way of going about things is deliberate, that there’s been intimidation by Mr Dühring’s handful of supporters.It’s all very well for [Dühringian] Mr Most to complain about the undue length of Engels’s articles. Mr Most’s own apology for Dühring (luckily for him never published) was very long indeed.If Mr Most has failed to note that there’s much to be learnt from Engels’s positive exposés, not only by ordinary workers and even ex-workers (who, like himself, suppose themselves capable of getting to know everything and pronounce on everything within the shortest possible time) but even by scientifically educated people, then I can only pity him for his lack of judgment…. Yours, K. M.Marx to Engels — 18 July 1877Dear Fred …And apart from all that, the way in which those [Dühringians] … conducted themselves in the Dühring affair calls for the précaution of maintaining as much distance from these gentlemen as political party relations permit. Their motto seems to be: Anyone who criticises his adversary by abusing him is a man of sensibility; but he who abuses an adversary by genuinely criticising him is an unworthy individual…. Your MoorMarx to Engels — 23 July 1877Dear Fred …Hirsch is furious with the Vorwärts over the Dühring business. He, too, now realises that fusion [with the Lassellians] has degraded the Party, both in theory and in practice…. Your MoorMarx to Friedrich Adolph Sorge — 27 September 1877Dear Friend …Mr Dühring; a conceited laddie who, when he reads something, no matter what, instantly converts it into material for publication… Your Karl MarxMarx to Moritz Kaufmann [Draft] — 3 October 1878Dear Sir …I shall also send you—if you do not already possess a copy—by post a recent publication of my friend Engels: Herrn Eugen Dühring's Umwälzung der Wissenschaft which is very important for a true appreciation of German Socialism…. Karl Marx
LBird wrote:That is, we can vote upon 'laws of nature', 'scientific knowledge', 'truths', maths, physics, logic, etc., etc.The whole of humanity will have full knowledge of advanced physics and maths. Every member of humanity will vote on ALL knowledge. The laws of nature can be changed by a vote of the entire world.Answer the questions put to you? Are you suggesting that socialism is only possible when we all understand every bit of every discipline. History, physics, maths, biological sciences etcYou ARE actually saying this, are you not?
Vin wrote:Answer the questions put to you? Are you suggesting that socialism is only possible when we all understand every bit of every discipline. History, physics, maths, biological sciences etcYou ARE actually saying this, are you not?[my bold]Answer the questions put to you? Are you suggesting that socialism is only possible when only an elite understands only their bit of separated disciplines. History, physics, maths, biological sciences etcYou ARE actually saying this, are you not?
Robbo has given my answer in post #27 now you give me yours. Vin wrote:Answer the questions put to you? Are you suggesting that socialism is only possible when we all understand every bit ofevery discipline. History, physics, maths, biological sciences etc You ARE actually saying this, are you not?
By the way LBird it is dishonest to reproduce someone's post after you have altered it
Vin wrote:By the way LBird it is dishonest to reproduce someone's post after you have altered itBy Christ, Vin, you're getting desperate now, aren't you?I 'bolded' your quote, and wrote 'my bold' after your named quote, so no-one could mistakenly think that the bolds were yours.Then, I repeated, for rhetorical effect, the flow of your words, but with the parts I altered in bold, so that no-one could miss the comparison of your statement with my statement.Anyway, you stick to elite control, Vin. You won't have democracy in truth production, will you?Why not just openly announce your opposition to workers' democratic control of the means of production?And you and robbo can continue to abase yourselves before bourgeois academics, and tell them that you're 'not worthy' of criticising academics.And you call this abject grovelling before the bourgeoisie, 'socialism'?It's not what I mean by 'socialism', Vin.
Why don't you answer my question? I have answered yours
LBird wrote:By Christ, Vin, you're getting desperate now, aren't you?not really. It is your way to distort what others sayDo you have an answer to my question?
Vin wrote:Why don't you answer my question? I have answered yoursI have answered your questions, Vin. And robbo's, YMS's, etc. You all keep ignoring what I write, and either make it up for yourselves, or constantly go back to what was asked and answered previously, like a mad merry-go-round.You tell me that you start from the assumption of workers' power, 'the democratic control of social production', and we'll discuss 'how'.Until then, you're going to have to continue with your present unexamined ideological belief, 'materialism', for which 'matter' determines what workers can know, rather than they themselves actively determining their world, and changing it from the mess we're in, now, under the bourgeoisie.Whilst an elite of 'physicists' determine 'physics', mate, we're fucked.
ALB wrote:LBird running wild on yet another thread as people feed him.ALB talking shite, as usual.Back to your ignorant 'materialism', bluffer.
For the record…The same volume 45 of Marx Engels Collected Works, that was referenced in Post #30 (above), contains the following give-and-take between Marx and Engels, and others, regarding their shared commitment to a commonly agreed scientific socialism.Marx to Maurice Lachâtre — 23 July 1874My dear Fellow Citizen …The need for a scientific basis for socialism is making itself increasingly felt in France, as everywhere else…. Yours ever, Karl MarxMarx to Engels — 18 July 1877 Dear Fred …It would certainly be very nice if a really scientific socialist periodical were to appear.This would provide an opportunity for criticism and counter-criticism in which theoretical points could be discussed by us and the total ignorance of professors and university lecturers exposed, thereby simultaneously disabusing the minds of the general public—workers and bourgeois alike…. Your MoorEngels to Marx — 24 July 1877Dear Moor …I think my reply will be as follows: firstly, it's impossible to agree to contribute to a scientific periodical with editors that are anonymous and contributors likewise unnamed.Congress resolutions, however unexceptionable they may be in the field of practical agitation, count for nothing in that of science, nor do they suffice to establish a periodical's scientific nature — something that cannot be decreed.A socialist scientific periodical without a quite definite scientific line is an absurdity and, given the present epidemic in Germany of diverse and indefinite lines, there has so far been no guarantee whatsoever that the line to be adopted will suit us.Secondly, however, after finishing the Dühring, I shall have to confine myself to my own independent work and shan't therefore have the time. What do you think of it? There’s no hurry.Your F. E.Marx to Carlo Cafiero — 29 July 1879 Dear Citizen …As to the concept of the thing, I believe I am not mistaken when I find an apparent gap in the views set out in your preface, which is that it lacks a proof that the material conditions indispensable to the emancipation of the proletariat are engendered in spontaneous fashion by the progress of capitalist production.[In the original, the following passage is deleted: ‘and the class struggle which finally leads to a social revolution. What distinguishes critical and revolutionary socialism from its predecessors is, in my opinion, precisely this materialist basis. It shows that at a certain stage of historical development the animal inevitably transforms into a man’. ]Moreover, I share your opinion—if I have interpreted your preface aright—that one ought not to overload the minds of the people one is proposing to educate. There is nothing to prevent your making, at the right moment, a further attempt aimed at placing greater emphasis on this materialist basis of Capital…. Yours very sincerely, Karl Marx
If i was interested in discovering more about what socialism means, this thread cannot be recommended, can it? Our blog tries to give a explanation of what we consider socialism to be if you haven't been driven away, The SpanishInquisition. http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2012/11/socialism.html#moreI take from your screen name that you would like to interrogate and quiz our answers and we would certainly welcome your cross-examination and i think this blog essay will provide you with specifics that you may wish to challenge and debate.
Just to recap on LBird's distorted view of 'democratic communism' Every human being will be specialsts in all and everything:Advanced physicsAdvanced mathematicsHistoryAdvanced Medical researchAdvance Computer programmingAdvance electronicstechnologyadvanced engineeringLanguageWe will all be brain surgeons and specialists in every field of medicineWe will need this knowledge to vote on the 'truth' of each in his 'democratic communism which he defines as 'workers control' and often refers to the working class controlling science in 'democratic communism.'He is very confused
alanjjohnstone wrote:If i was interested in discovering more about what socialism means, this thread cannot be recommended, can it?On the contrary, alan, it's enormously revealing!There's one worker arguing for the 'democratic control of the means of production'…… and an entire party aguing that 'socialism' means 'elite control of the means of production'.This is the SPGB, alan. Wake up. They've been doing this since 1904, just like Lenin, with the same ideology.I'm sure any workers reading, wanting to find out how they can collectively come to control the means of production, will draw the appropriate conclusions.
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