What is my next step? How promote socialism locally?
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So if I wanted to promote socialism locally should I start a group? I live in So California and I can't believe there isn't one near me, but there isn't. It can't be your group, because we respectfully disagree. But a group almost exactly like yours. (Don't sue me).
What do we disagree on?
Are there other contacts who want to meet locally (or online via group teleconferencing such as Skype)?If so you can begin with discussions, then more formal talks, then guest speakers (via Skype)?
admice wrote:So if I wanted to promote socialism locally should I start a group? I live in So California and I can't believe there isn't one near me, but there isn't. It can't be your group, because we respectfully disagree. But a group almost exactly like yours. (Don't sue me).If there is any group in your neck of the woods defining socialism along the lines that we do I can assure you we would have been in contact with them to discuss our respective platform.I'm also interested in what the disagreement you have with us.
I like that "Yours For Positive Socialist Activity".Anyway, well I've been emailing with Paddy and Adam and should have taken it to the forums, but we didn't.So nutshell: You will end up with a market and stratification of some kind. I don't want it, but can't figure a way around it. With items that are scarce, people will develop a market, so we have to plan ahead how to keep it 'powerless'? maybe. You all disagree.The other was I didn't think possible to get most of the world on board and 'revolting' or 'sitting in' or whatever we are going to do (probably not in my lifetime unfortunately) at the same time. I've since moderated that some, it might be possible, but still a hugely difficult undertaking and they will try to stamp it out every way they can. How keep it somewhat secret until build a large enough group all over? Does one? Using electoral means, elections are rigged in parts of the U.S. even, let alone other countries. Don't see how that would be successfull unless a slow incremental increase to vastness including poll workers, lower govt etc. And if you actually wond by electoral have to make sure you have the military on board prior to that.My other question was what about those who don't want socialism? They aren't ignorant, usually better educated actually, they just know they want more. They want their chances at the gold ring. Right now in the U.S there are a lot, I have no idea how many because everyone skews the numbers, but based upon who I know and atheist forums, close to half the population. You can't have it mixed, we have to have a large majority. How get it? (Not shoot them , btw).Last one I think was keeping a police force in check. Some of you think it won't be necessary. I strongly disagree. Ok, that enough? lol
I'll foray around and try to find other like-minded. Occupy and Zeitgeist have groups here, so I probably can find a few.Thanks.
admice wrote:So if I wanted to promote socialism locally should I start a group? I live in So California and I can't believe there isn't one near me, but there isn't. It can't be your group, because we respectfully disagree. But a group almost exactly like yours. (Don't sue me).To find a genuine socialist group ( except the WSPUS ) in the USA , it would be like looking for chicken teeth and fish legs.Some isolated individuals have tried to start a socialist group and they have ended building a fraternity club. In order to build a house we need good and strong foundations first
admice wrote:I like that "Yours For Positive Socialist Activity".Anyway, well I've been emailing with Paddy and Adam and should have taken it to the forums, but we didn't.So nutshell: You will end up with a market and stratification of some kind. I don't want it, but can't figure a way around it. With items that are scarce, people will develop a market, so we have to plan ahead how to keep it 'powerless'? maybe. You all disagree.The other was I didn't think possible to get most of the world on board and 'revolting' or 'sitting in' or whatever we are going to do (probably not in my lifetime unfortunately) at the same time. I've since moderated that some, it might be possible, but still a hugely difficult undertaking and they will try to stamp it out every way they can. How keep it somewhat secret until build a large enough group all over? Does one? Using electoral means, elections are rigged in parts of the U.S. even, let alone other countries. Don't see how that would be successfull unless a slow incremental increase to vastness including poll workers, lower govt etc. And if you actually wond by electoral have to make sure you have the military on board prior to that.My other question was what about those who don't want socialism? They aren't ignorant, usually better educated actually, they just know they want more. They want their chances at the gold ring. Right now in the U.S there are a lot, I have no idea how many because everyone skews the numbers, but based upon who I know and atheist forums, close to half the population. You can't have it mixed, we have to have a large majority. How get it? (Not shoot them , btw).Last one I think was keeping a police force in check. Some of you think it won't be necessary. I strongly disagree. Ok, that enough? lolWell, I have been in this thing called socialist/communist movement since I was in High School and many decades have passed already, and I am still learning, and haven't given up, and there was a time when I thought that everybody was a revolutionary, and were able to close schools and universities by giving a small Command, and then all that fervor declined completely, and it is almost down to zero degree, which means that we can not grab by the hair the working class and force them to do their own revolt.Marx and Engels took mostly all their ideas from the working class movement of their time, and they never saw a socialist or working class revolution, and during their time workers did not have any fear toward socialism and communism, probably the ruling class were more scared than them, but now is the opposite way, most of the workers are supporting capitalism and their own ruling class, therefore it is going to take a long time to acquire the subjective condition that we need in order to establish a new society. Marx and Engels never dared to create a blueprint of how the know society should beI thought I knew everything before I joined the socialist party and when I started to get in touch with the party I discovered that I had to re-learn everything that I have learned because everything was twisted. Marx Twain said: When I returned from the university I discovered two things: How much my father knew, and how little I knew also.The first thing that we have to do is to remove our romantic notion about this society from our brains, and I know that most of the Americans have been bombarded for more than 200 years with fairy tales, and illusions about a society that is not what is presented on the news, the school systems, and the propaganda made person to person, all that is called bourgeoisie ideology, and that is the first break that peoples must have: To break away from the capitalist ideology and their illusions.My grandfather at least knew how to read and write and he was aware that the Soviet Union was not a socialist country that it was like any other country over the earth, and he knew that WWI, and WWII were fights among thieves and land robbers, he was orienting himself using a short wave radio, and I have seen many peoples with doctorate degree in history, economic and political science who know less than him, and they are exploited like wage slaves and they think that they are living in paradise on earth, and that the place where they live is an island and that the world is flat. They are totally confused about this societyThe US is not planet earth and what ever is taking place over there is not the norm in all the countries, there are peoples outside the USA who have more political and class consciousness, and many think that it is possible to establish a new society without state and without police and military forces, Do you have a crystal ball to know that we are going to end with a market ? , if we do not have a system of profits, we would not need a market system, what it shows is that you do not understand the case of socialism yet, and you are still using the same reasoning that you have learned through all your life.Academic education is not a requirement to become a socialist or to understand this society, the best way to understand socialism is by studying and reading about socialism, and for that, we do not need an academic degree, I have seen workers who only know how to read and read and they have learned about socialism and communism
Ok, u tell me, how do you handle shortages? My example was a doctor is in high demand, very popular. He can only serve so many patients a day. Bribery begins, etc.
admice wrote:Ok, u tell me, how do you handle shortages? My example was a doctor is in high demand, very popular. He can only serve so many patients a day. Bribery begins, etc.How will this doctor be bribed? What will s(he) be bribed with?
As I posted the following on libcomhttp://libcom.org/forums/general/spgb-how-they-want-achieve-socialism-08092013#comment-527785 The American companion party WSPUS "In the 1951 W.S.P. Conference held in Detroit, the following motion, that stirred up a hornet's nest, was carried: " Under capitalism, where the State machinery is in the hands of the capitalist class, the ballot can be used for the purpose of measuring the developing socialist consciousness of the working class. When this consciousness reaches a majority stage the ballot can become the revolutionary weapon for the introduction of socialism. If, at the time the socialist majority is obtained, material conditions preclude the use of the ballot, then this majority will use whatever other means are at hand to introduce socialism." " As reported in Forum July 1953.
I seem to remember Adam coming back from an occupy meeting quite a while ago with a leaflet given to him by a lady from California, she had flown over especially to see occupy London. From the leaflet they seemed pretty similar to us (but different) and we spoke about contacting them. Can't remember their name though.Have you been in contact with anyone from WSPUS they may have a better list of contacts in your area. Although thinking about it I do have an aquaintance in America who is sypathetic towards us. He's a DeLeonist can't remember the name of their party either but from what I remember they do have 'leaders'. I can try and dig up that e-mail address for you. Got a feeling he's on the east coast, in Chicago or something. But he rejects elections in the US for many of the same reasons that you do.On the police thing. I don't think there's a unified opinion on the matter within the party. Details like that are better left to the future which we can't predict. However, personnally I don't think there could be any kind of police force as we know it today as it is clearly a product of capitalism. It may prove to be the embrionic basis of something which may fill some of the same roles. But It would be so different to the current state of things that it would be difficult to call it a police force. If property is 9/10ths of the law then 9/10ths of their job has been abolished.
admice wrote:Ok, u tell me, how do you handle shortages? My example was a doctor is in high demand, very popular. He can only serve so many patients a day. Bribery begins, etc.What kind of shortage are we talking about ? How can you have shortage on a society based on free access ? How can you bribe a person in a society without a monetary system ? You are reasoning according to what you have learned about the wrong conception of socialism, or the propaganda made by the rulers about the so called socialists countries, and in some of those countries the shortage is produced by their own embargo, or due to inefficacy of state capitalism, or the economical backwardness of those countries.In a world socialist society money can be used as toilet paper, or as wall paper, and gold and silver can be used to make cooking pot, or paper used to make currency can be recycled to produce shopping bags, or some others products made out of papers. If we do not have the law of buying and selling, money won't be needed. How are we going to have bribery, unless we talking about something else, because the socialist society is going to be much better than the actual one, but it does not mean that we are not going to have any problems, in this scenario the only bribery that I can see is sex bribery We do not even have shortage in the capitalist society, we have private appropriation and over-production. At the present time mankind is producing enough foods in order to fee about three times the population that exists on earth. Argentina is one of the biggest producer of meat in the world and they have thousands of peoples looking for food in the public dumpsters. In the US there is a shortage of medicals doctors because Medicine is a business like any other business in which the main purpose is to produce profits and they have a center to control the amount of doctors that can practice Medicine, and also it is a profession financed by banks, but, in others countries there is an excess of doctors, even Cuba which is a small island with limited resources proportionally they produce more doctors than all the Universities located in the USA, and the tuition is free, and they are graduating doctors from others countries too.In others countries in order to be a medical doctor you only have to take your high school diploma to any university and you will be admitted to the School of Medicine because they have open admission, there is not a pre-qualification, there is not selective testing, and they do not have to pay for tution, or the tution would be a small amount of money, they do not have to take a bank loan of $180,000.00 to obtain a medical diploma. In the capitalist society education is also a business financed by banks and investors
Ed wrote:I seem to remember Adam coming back from an occupy meeting quite a while ago with a leaflet given to him by a lady from California, she had flown over especially to see occupy London. From the leaflet they seemed pretty similar to us (but different) and we spoke about contacting them. Can't remember their name though.Have you been in contact with anyone from WSPUS they may have a better list of contacts in your area. Although thinking about it I do have an aquaintance in America who is sypathetic towards us. He's a DeLeonist can't remember the name of their party either but from what I remember they do have 'leaders'. I can try and dig up that e-mail address for you. Got a feeling he's on the east coast, in Chicago or something. But he rejects elections in the US for many of the same reasons that you do.On the police thing. I don't think there's a unified opinion on the matter within the party. Details like that are better left to the future which we can't predict. However, personnally I don't think there could be any kind of police force as we know it today as it is clearly a product of capitalism. It may prove to be the embrionic basis of something which may fill some of the same roles. But It would be so different to the current state of things that it would be difficult to call it a police force. If property is 9/10ths of the law then 9/10ths of their job has been abolished.The SLP of America does not exist any longer, they do not publish their newspaper either, and they used to have an office in Palos Altos and I think they lost the leasing agreement. We have DeLeonists at the WSM forum.Why do we have to create something new when there is already one companion party of the WSM in the USA which is the WSPUS, or there is one in Canada which is the Socialist Party of Canada ? I said in another message that when we go inside the jungle, or to penetrate a sugar cane plantation we must carry a machete to cut the trees and the leaves to reach our destination, that job has been done by others peoples, there are only one or two genuine Socialist Parties in the Americas ( North, South, Central and Caribbean ) and they are: The WSPUS and the SPC. Let's use a Leninist phrase: The ideological camps have been demarcated already. The difference between Leftism ( reformism ) and socialism have been defined already too
Of course it's not the SLP, I really can't remember what it's called I'll have to ask him. I believe it's a very small party. But if admice doesn't want to join WSPUS as she said, then I'll do my best to try to help her find something she may agree with more. The important thing for me is that someone agrees with the end goal, even if they have disagreements with the strategy. I hope admice will keep in touch though whatever she decides. And no I fundamentally disagree that the WSM companion parties are the only genuine socialists.
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