What came first
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If we accept that humans were born equal, where did it all go wrong? Why did private property develop? Was it because men overpowered women. At what point in human history did we go so far wrong?
Around 10000 years ago give or take (i.e. when settled agriculture started to spread). Nothing to do with men overpowering women.
paula – ‘If we accept that humans were born equal, where did it all go wrong? Why did private property develop? Was it because men overpowered women. At what point in human history did we go so far wrong?’
The question assumes that our species had a choice as to its future. Like the natural environment for other species humanity had to adapt to the world created by its own technology. The invention of agriculture had social and political consequences that could not be predicted at the time. Humanity did not have the understanding (consciousness) to have any chance to control these consequences. It is only now possible, through socialist consciousness, that such a possibility exists. Our work and tech inventions define us as a species just as the natural environment defines the success (or otherwise) of other animals.
” It is only now possible, through socialist consciousness, that such a possibility exists.”
********You’d think.
We will only know it was possible when it happens. If something possible never happens, then it wasn’t possible.
The only thing we can, and must, do is to do our best to edge it toward possibility, even when all the conditions for it to become possible are in place, except for the final ingredient: awareness on a large majority’s part. If that doesn’t come, then it wasn’t possible.TM – ‘We will only know it was possible when it happens. If something possible never happens, then it wasn’t possible.’
Look at it the other way around – if socialism never comes to pass does that mean it was always ‘impossible’? At this time it seems that its establishment is ‘improbable’ but that doesn’t make it impossible. Our species has the ability to imagine alternatives and given the right material conditions they can be considered possible – indeed without this synthesis there could be no change.
If socialism never happens it obviously wasn’t possible, not because it wasn’t viable, but because people were never ready/aware for it. But we won’t know it was impossible until it didn’t happen. Whether our species has the ability to realise it remains to be seen. If we don’t realise it, then obviously we didn’t have the ability, because our collective will never came round to it.
You didn’t cross the road; you went into the store instead. You imagine it was possible for you to cross the road. But it wasn’t, because you didn’t. You cannot decide other than you decide at any one time. You cannot think other than what you think at any one time. You imagine you are free not to be a socialist, but you are not, because you are one.
Fwiw Engels wrote about this topic in the Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State. I’m not really sure how all of his anthropological/historical arguments stack up to our modern understandings, but there is still a lot of useful info in it. Engels also notably praised indigenous peoples like the Iroquois and described them as an example of early communism/socialism. The Iroquois’ mastery over their production (i.e. the fact that they were not dominated by their own products/commodities like in bourgeois society) and the greater social position of women in such societies greatly impressed him. He essentially described the socialism/communism of the future as being like this “primitive” communism but on a more advanced technological basis.
If socialism never happens it obviously wasn’t possible. (….) You didn’t cross the road; you went into the store instead. You imagine it was possible for you to cross the road. But it wasn’t, because you didn’t.”
Oh no, no this sophistry again ! It is possible that I will reply in detail but I won’t. So I didn’t. So it wasn’t be possible after all. QED.
Can we move on to the next item on the agenda: How many angels can dance on a pinhead?
Ps. Don’t reply to this because if you do it will be impossible for me to reply.
Human will is as subject to cause and effect as is everything that exists. You are motivated to work toward socialism. If the majority are never motivated to, in spite of our efforts, then it was not possible.
One cannot think, feel, choose or do other than as one thinks, feels, chooses or does at any given time.
“If he had thought of checking his oven was left on, his house wouldn’t have burned down.” Fair enough, but he didn’t, so it was not possible that he might have. To say “he could have thought it” is meaningless.
Similarly, “If they had come round to our thinking and made socialism, we wouldn’t be lingering now in an unlivable world.” But they didn’t, so it wasn’t possible. To say they could have is equally meaningless.
The obverse is also true, of course.
The reason why women are unequal to men in class divided societies is because women get pregnant, but men don’t.
Capital views men as profit makers, whereas, it views women secondarily as profit makers and primarily as producers of the next generation of profit makers.
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