We’re famous (again)

[ALB]

Something to cheer up those who moan about us going down the pan. Go here and scroll down and click to see inside and see what Niall Ferguson says on pages 17 and 18 of his 2008 best seller The Ascent of Money:

It is a quote from the Socialist Standard of July 1979 but from a translation we did of extracts from a French pamphlet entitled "Un monde sans argent" (A World Without Money) to show that capitalism throws up socialist/communist ideas independently of us. An English translation of the whole pamphlet can be found here (where we get another mention):

https://libcom.org/library/world-without-money-les-amis-de-4-millions-de-jeunes-travailleurs

A bit surprising, I suppose, that none of us noticed it before but Howard Pilott mentioned it in his talk in Brighton earlier this week.

[LBird]

ALB wrote:

…capitalism throws up socialist/communist ideas independently of us.

This would be better phrased, ALB, as "…other workers themselves produce socialist/communist ideas independently of us already socialist/communist workers".Otherwise, it can seem to mean that something other than critical, creative workers produce 'ideas'.It allows Leninist (read 'materialist') interpretations of 'reality' (ie. 'capitalism speaks to them alone') to come to the fore.Of course, 'capitalism' does not speak to workers, and other ideas of it, other than socialist/communist ones, can just as easily be, ahem, 'thrown up'.There are plenty of hidden 'throwers' waiting in the wings for unwary workers. That's why workers who are already socialist/communist must propagandise actively amongst our class.'Capitalism throwing' is part of the class struggle, not a passive wait for being thrown a material bone.

[robbo203]

ALB wrote:

 Go here and scroll down and click to see inside and see what Niall Ferguson says on pages 17 and 18 of his 2008 best seller The Ascent of Money:http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0718194004#reader_0718194004

 I notice that Ferguson goes on to make some absolutely ludicrous claims about hunter gatherer societies!

[alanjjohnstone]

Quote:

We're famous (again)…A bit surprising, I suppose, that none of us noticed it

I think the second bit of the observation puts things in the proper perspective…If we didn't spot the link, i'm sure few others did so hardly fame for us.But all kudos to Howard in doing so. 

[ALB]

Not a bad caricature of yourself, Private Fraser Actually of course is means two things. That those who read the book would have been introduced to us. And that Party members are not inclined to read books by Ferguson given his TV performances.

[Lew]

ALB wrote:

Something to cheer up those who moan about us going down the pan. Go here and scroll down and click to see inside and see what Niall Ferguson says on pages 17 and 18 of his 2008 best seller The Ascent of Money: [snip]A bit surprising, I suppose, that none of us noticed it before but Howard Pilott mentioned it in his talk in Brighton earlier this week.

 This topic was a thread on the WSM Forum 6 years ago: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/wsm_forum/conversations/topics/37498 It includes a couple of contributions from … ALB. Lew

[ALB]

Thanks. That shows two other things. That my memory is going. And that Private Fraser is wrong.

[SocialistPunk]

Not quite worth getting exicited about. It's extremely dismissive.

Quote:

As recently as the 1970s, some European Communists were still yearning for a moneyless world, as in this Utopian effusion from the Socialist Standard:(insert quote from Socialist Standard)Yet no Communist state – not even North Korea – has found it practical to dispense with money.

[Anonymous]

I think the quote highlights the confusion still around today.  We don't advocate abolishing: money the material conditions are not there to dispense with money. Tho we do yearn for a moneyless society. 

[ALB]

All true, but sometimes any publicity is good publicity. And some people will see a half-empty glass where others see a half-full one.

[SocialistPunk]

Vin wrote:

I think the quote highlights the confusion still around today.  We don't advocate abolishing: money the material conditions are not there to dispense with money. Tho we do yearn for a moneyless society.

Vin,What do you mean by the material conditions to abolish money do not exist? Are you referring to the lack of socialist consciousness?

[SocialistPunk]

ALB wrote:

All true, but sometimes any publicity is good publicity. And some people will see a half-empty glass where others see a half-full one.

ALB,I would say this "publicity" is worse than no publicity.What we have here is an author whose ideological outlook gets way more mainstream coverage than the SPGB/WSM could ever dare to hope for and he's essentially saying, "Can you believe some hippie lefties still cling to the Utopian notion of a world without money. Dream on. Now back to reality."What's worse is he only takes it up to the 1970's and doesn't mention the SPGB by name. He know's the SPGB exist and still advocate a world without money and he's doing a good job of painting it as a quaint notion.It's just more of the same misrepresentation etc, us socialists have to face on a regular basis.Using the water in a glass metaphor. We're trying to fill the glass, while him and his kind successfully drain it. But never dry.

[Anonymous]

SocialistPunk wrote:

Vin,What do you mean by the material conditions to abolish money do not exist? Are you referring to the lack of socialist consciousness?

Money cannot be abolished while the capitalist mode of production existsWe cannot call for the aboition of money today, the working class needs to win the class struggle, take the means of wealth production under common ownership and implement free access to all.  Money, like the state, is not abolished, it has no function.   

[SocialistPunk]

Vin,Of course we can call for the abolition of money today, it's an integral part of the socialist case. Every time I've discussed our brand of socialism with others the abolition of money is a core feature. I don't know about other socialists but I don't try to get non socialists to think of a capitalist world with no money.Consciously adopting a socialist society would mean the abolition of money along with capitalism, it is a conscious decision, surely.Or perhaps you're suggesting socialism would evolve? I've been thinking of setting up a thread to discuss the concept of socialism coming about through evolution or revolution, or a mix of both. When we discuss socialism with non socialists we are trying to get people to think of it now, not in a distant future in a galaxy far far away.

[Author]

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