We need to talk about Bernie
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mcolome1 wrote:jondwhite wrote:Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:I don't think most Americans are ready to accept something using the name Socialism or Communism, but most of us are so uninformed we wouldn't know socialism or communism if it came to us under a different name.
see here for evidence to the contraryhttp://depts.washington.edu/moves/SP_intro.shtml
That historical passage has been removed from the book of USA History. The only real Historian has been Howard ZInn, and his books will never be used as textbook on the Education System, they want the students to continue reading fairy tales, an nonsense about the so called American dream. Howard Zinn has been read more outside of the USA than Inside of the USA.
More evidence to the contrary from Wikipedia
Quote:In 2008, the Zinn Education Project was launched to promote and support the use of A People's History of the United States (and other materials) for teaching in middle and high school classrooms across the U.S. The goal of the project is to give American students accurate and complete versions of U.S. history, with full historical complexity. With funds from an anonymous donor who had been a student of Zinn's, the project began by distributing 4,000 packets to teachers in all states and territories. The project now offers teaching guides and bibliographies that can be freely downloaded.jondwhite wrote:mcolome1 wrote:jondwhite wrote:Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:I don't think most Americans are ready to accept something using the name Socialism or Communism, but most of us are so uninformed we wouldn't know socialism or communism if it came to us under a different name.see here for evidence to the contraryhttp://depts.washington.edu/moves/SP_intro.shtml
That historical passage has been removed from the book of USA History. The only real Historian has been Howard ZInn, and his books will never be used as textbook on the Education System, they want the students to continue reading fairy tales, an nonsense about the so called American dream. Howard Zinn has been read more outside of the USA than Inside of the USA.
More evidence to the contrary from Wikipedia
Quote:In 2008, the Zinn Education Project was launched to promote and support the use of A People's History of the United States (and other materials) for teaching in middle and high school classrooms across the U.S. The goal of the project is to give American students accurate and complete versions of U.S. history, with full historical complexity. With funds from an anonymous donor who had been a student of Zinn's, the project began by distributing 4,000 packets to teachers in all states and territories. The project now offers teaching guides and bibliographies that can be freely downloaded.First . Wikipedia is not a trusted source of information, it is like Facebook, and the Voice of the Americas, financed by a criminal institution known as the CIA, and second. it is a project initiated by Zinn Foundation, it has not been initiated, or taking into practice by the US Educational Department. To implement that project they have to find teachers who know the same information, or they have to re-learn the real history of the USAThe US government itself has prohibited in others countries to read the works of Marx and Engels, and many peoples were killed because they were reading "subversive books", and the first criminals in that project were the USA ambassadors, one in special butcher known as Negroponte,( the ambassador of Iraq ) and the School's District of Florida prohibited the reading, and studying of a book written in Cuba used to educate children Several teachers in California were removed from their jobs because they were teaching Black history in the proper historical context, they were not talking about boxing, basketball, it was about real history. You will not find that in WikipediaThe US has been imported teachers from others countries for many years. Cuba is able to graduate more than 2000 doctors every year, and the student only spend 25.00 to obtain a doctorate degree, and the curriculum is better than the one from Harvard and Yale,( they spend 400,000 dollars ) in Argentina a medical student used to take three years of Anatomy and Physiology, and Pathology, and Harvard only teaches a few weeksRichard Wolf who is a doctor in Economic graduated from Harvard and Yale said, that in order for him to learn Economics,( or Econometrics) after spending so many years in graduate schools, he had to read Marx;s Capital, In 1963 Volume 1 and Volume 2 were textbooks of Economics at the undergraduate School of Economics at the University of Santo Domingo, and the program was implemented by students and teachers, ( The University Senate was controlled by students, and policemen were not allowed to go inside the Campus, the tuition is $3.00 ) and now Harvey is teaching volume 1 at NYU. At the UASD they offered free transportation to the students, and it was implemented by the students too, it was not implemented by banks or bankersThe system of education in others countries is more advanced that the ones in the USA. Several years ago a student emigrating from Latin America from first year in High School , he, or she was placed on 3 year of high school. Continue saying in others countries Howard Zinn and Francis Jennings have been read more than in the USA, there are more peoples outside the USA who know more about the history of the USA than the population living inside the USA. There is not need to need cite Wikipedia for that, before establishing Wikipedia it was a well known factThere is a book written by Prof Juan Bosh written before the book of Howard Zinn was published , which covers the same aspect of his book, but in larger scale, because it covers all the Americas,( The Mapuche,or Araucanos, Jamaican, and Haitians are American ) his book is known as: From Christopher Columbus to Fidel Castro ( and Caribbean imperial frontier ) and he was a peasant who never had a formal education, he is self educated in History, Social Sciences and Economics ( He read Marx after he had a coup financed by the CIA ) and he was a teacher of Political Sciences, History, and Spanish, at the University of Puerto Rico,( founded by Harvard ) University of Havana, and UASD,( founded in 1866 ) and Costa Rica, and his books is read, taught and studied in Latin America without any problems. ( Including Howard Zinn and Francis Jennings )The best Educational System was implemented by a Puerto Rican known as Eugenio Maria de Hostos, and that system was never implemented in the USA because it forces student to think by themselves, and to be critical, and he was against the domination of the Western empire in others countries,( he was forced to leave Puerto Rico because he was against the US domination, and then the politicians speak about democracy ) his system was implemented in Argentina, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, and others countries without any problems, even more, Catholics schools implemented his system. The system force students to take verbal examinations, and verbal examination is still used at the University of Buenos Aires, in the School of Medicine, it is part of the critical thinking, it is not a brainwashing systemOnly one single book of US History written by Francis Jennings ( before Howard Zinn ) proves that everything is based on a bunch of historical lies, that book is known as: Colonialism, because the peoples that came from Europe to the North Continents were invaders, and the second one is Founders, of the Americas, the founders were not a bunch of criminals known as the founders fathers,( the first terrorist, before the Islamist was George Washington) , the founders were the Natives such as the Apaches, Cherokee, Sioux, etc, ( wrongly named as Indian, the Indians are from India ) , and the name of America was imposed by the invaders, the name of Latin America was imposed too, because the Latinos are from Europe, they already had their own names, and Christopher Colombo was not Italian, he was an Irish converted to Catholic, he worked for a company name Colombo in Italy, and the invasion was financed by banks. Others historian and linguistic have proven that the Spanish language, French, and Portuguese they do not come from Latin,( the grammar is similar ) it was spoken by peasants in Italy and Rome, the discovery was made in a Banana Republic, and most peoples in the USA think that speaking one language is a big deal because they have been trained by historian and politician to believe that they are exclusive. it is a tactic to keep the US separated from the workers of others part of the worldThe peoples following Donald Trump think that all the Mexican are rapists, and thieves, but they do not know the real history of Mexico, and they do not know that the southern part of the US was known as the Second Mexican Republic, founded by the Aztec, and the Toltecas extended them selves up to the Mississippi, and there are many medical doctors and scientists in the US that are from Mexico, who have emigrated to the US,in the 1930 more than 2 millions Mexicans were deported and the agriculture fields, and real estate went into bankruptcy, and 65% of them were American citizens. All those territories were stolen from the descendants of the Aztecs and the Mayas, that is real history, it is not Wikipedia fairy tales, and the original treaty known as: Guadalupe-Hidalgo says that the Mexican were allowed to go in and out of the USA whenever they want it to do it. Ronald Reagan and the CIA were drugs dealers and they made financial dealing with Pablo Escobar one of the biggest drug dealers from Colombia, and the journalist who wrote about that was killed, and he wrote a book named The Dark Alliance, and also they made alliance with terrorists and paramilitary and they provided military weapons to gangsters groups in the USA to sell the drugs in the poor neighborhood to make money to finance another groups of terrorist known as the Contras, and the head of the operation was Collin Powell and Oliver North, considered as heroes instead of placing them in jail along with Henry Kissinger, and Negroponte. Most students in the USA do not know that historical passageMany historians in the USA do not know, or do not want to know that black slaves run away to Haiti because they had a much better bourgeois constitution who protected them and give them more rights, and there is a book written by another Historian from Dominica known as CLR James who wrote the Black Jacobin, about the first real anti-Slavery revolution, and Haiti was the first Capitalist republic established in the Caribbean, and they had a large economical advancement, it is not voodoo, and witch craft. Those ignorants Evangelical as Pat Robertson, and his followers do not know that Voodoo is part of the Christian- Catholic religion, it is the christian religion of the Black slaves, also known as Santeria in Cuba.In the Constitution of the USA, blacks, Latinos, and Indian were not included. Donald Trump prototype has existed since many centuries ago. History is history, the rest is fairy tales
jondwhite wrote:Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:I don't think most americans are ready to accept somethign using the name Socialism or Communism, but most of us are so uninformed we wouldn't know socialism or communism if it came to us under a different name.see here for evidence to the contraryhttp://depts.washington.edu/moves/SP_intro.shtml
I just love data. Thanks for the link. This seems to be just the numbers of people who vote socialist. the numbers seem to confirm my claim and are quite small compared to the general population. I'm actually more suggesting that a lot of americans have a word aversion to socialism and might favor it more if it were called by a different name. For every person who votes socialist, there's probably 10 times that number who didn't want to "waste their vote" and 100 times that number who agree with socialist principles as long as they don't realize those principles fall under the name of socialism.
If Trump wins, Democrats owe an apology to Berniehttp://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-5565.htmlor should Bernie have run as a third party candidate?
jondwhite wrote:If Trump wins, Democrats owe an apology to Berniehttp://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-5565.htmlor should Bernie have run as a third party candidate?Too late for Bernie now. He blotted his copy book by endorsing Clinton and, for many of his supporters, that was unforgivable. If Trump becomes President Trump, as is now looking likely. this will once again expose the folly of that tactic of voting for the lesser evil instead if sticking to your guns
The new saviour of the progressives according to the liberal media is now Elizabeth Warren.Warren for 2020And they are still giving Sanders a role in Our Revolution.Is the Democratic Party going to be disowned?
Bernie Sanders is a dead fish. American ( USA ) progressive politicians do not have the balls, or the courage to stand on their feet, they give up too easily to the pressures of the ruling elite. Peoples who have never supported progressive ideas, or what they call as "socialism" were ready to vote for him. It is something new and strange in the whole history of the US of North America, after Eugene Debs, although there is a great difference between both individualsThe whole consensus around the world is that American workers are anti-communists, reactionaries, recalcitrant, narrow-nationalists, and right wingers, but the campaign of Bernie Sanders proved that there is large sector of the US working class, and the youth that do not fit within that consensus, it is the US ruling class who wants peoples around the world to believe thatHis support toward Hillary Clinton placed the last nail on his coffin, and that gave path to the victory of Donald Trump, and his career as an "honest" politician has already been thrown in the mud. He is a bandit of the ruling elite, he is just like all the others, he has lost his credibility .This whole situation has proven what we have said for many years: Politicians and leaders can not change the economical base, on the contrary the interests of the economical base will change them, but workers will continue tailgating their own rulers and capitalist leaders, most workers around the world do not have class consciousness to remove from their brains the need of a leader.The young American working class movement has also proven that in certain moment the world working class can take class consciousness and would stand on their feet and will overthrow this stupid economical system which can take us to our own destruction
mcolome1 wrote:Bernie Sanders is a dead fish. American ( USA ) progressive politicians do not have the balls, or the courage to stand on their feet, they give up too easily to the pressures of the ruling elite. Peoples who have never supported progressive ideas, or what they call as "socialism" were ready to vote for him. It is something new and strange in the whole history of the US of North America, after Eugene Debs, although there is a great difference between both individuals………The young American working class movement has also proven that in certain moment the world working class can take class consciousness and would stand on their feet and will overthrow this stupid economical system which can take us to our own destructionThe problem is that it is, not yet, a movement and we are, not yet, perceived as having the answer.
Matt wrote:mcolome1 wrote:Bernie Sanders is a dead fish. American ( USA ) progressive politicians do not have the balls, or the courage to stand on their feet, they give up too easily to the pressures of the ruling elite. Peoples who have never supported progressive ideas, or what they call as "socialism" were ready to vote for him. It is something new and strange in the whole history of the US of North America, after Eugene Debs, although there is a great difference between both individuals………The young American working class movement has also proven that in certain moment the world working class can take class consciousness and would stand on their feet and will overthrow this stupid economical system which can take us to our own destructionThe problem is that it is, not yet, a movement and we are, not yet, perceived as having the answer.
I am not talking about a movement per se, I am talking about a certain groups of workers who are discontented with the capitalist system, but they do not know yet how to focus their problems properly. Some of us went thru the same road until we discovered that there is a better alternative for mankind outside of the frame of the capitalist system. Many left wingers as still hitting the Piñatas in the wrong place too
This self proclaimed Socialist named Bernie Sanders is like a Ping Pong ball, first, he surrendered or capitulated with Hillary Clinton and the Democratic, and now, he has surrendered and capitulated with Donald Trump and the Republican Party. Capitalist politicians always capitulate with the capitalist class, sometimes they are dressed like sheep, but they are real wolf, and sometimes workers are not able to see that. It is like electing a Billionaire to be the president of the working class
Matt wrote:mcolome1 wrote:Bernie Sanders is a dead fish. American ( USA ) progressive politicians do not have the balls, or the courage to stand on their feet, they give up too easily to the pressures of the ruling elite. Peoples who have never supported progressive ideas, or what they call as "socialism" were ready to vote for him. It is something new and strange in the whole history of the US of North America, after Eugene Debs, although there is a great difference between both individuals………The young American working class movement has also proven that in certain moment the world working class can take class consciousness and would stand on their feet and will overthrow this stupid economical system which can take us to our own destructionThe problem is that it is, not yet, a movement and we are, not yet, perceived as having the answer.
Well, yes I agree. I've proposed an answer for you and you have not yet percieved it. I'm starting a great movement that answers a lot of your needs. What if I start a socialist revolution and you refuse the invitation?
Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:Well, yes I agree. I've proposed an answer for you and you have not yet perceived it. I'm starting a great movement that answers a lot of your needs. What if I start a socialist revolution and you refuse the invitation?LOL Steve The very fact that you are obsessed with this silly – not to say tiresome – "universal exchange protocol" of yours and that you insist on exchanges taking a quid pro quo form and that these should be quantified, suggests to me that you have still quite a long way to go before you break with a capitalist mindset. Also, you should be aware that neither you nor even a group of like-minded individuals are hoing to be able to "start a socialist revolution", anyway. It has to be the conscious act of a working class majority. Are you flirting with Leninist ideas now?
Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:Well, yes I agree. I've proposed an answer for you and you have not yet percieved it. I'm starting a great movement that answers a lot of your needs. What if I start a socialist revolution and you refuse the invitation?
Go ahead , make my day. I have been waiting for that day for several decades. Not even the Commissar Lenin and the planned revolt of the Bolshevik were able to do thatThe problem is that you have built in yourself the conception of leader, leadership, and the individual conception of history, conception which has been proven for more than 100 years that it is totally incorrect and wrong. You can even send me your invitation to my funeral and it will not make any difference. Many guru before you have tried to do that, and they have failedIt has been proven due to past intents that socialism can only be established in a world scale, in the same way that capitalism has expanded itself around the world, and it has created the objective conditions for a new society, and it has to be established by the vast majority of the members of the working class, the main problem is that the subject or the slaves does not have the proper political consciousness to replace capitalism for socialism.That action ca not be done by an individuals, or using brilliants ideas, we must educate ourselves on the most basic principles of socialism, we must understand that as a class that we are the one only able to free ourselves, and break our invisible chains that keep us tied to capitalism.You can use your postcard for the Christmas holiday, or to record and time the boom of Marihuana sales next year in the State of California
robbo203 wrote:Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:Well, yes I agree. I've proposed an answer for you and you have not yet perceived it. I'm starting a great movement that answers a lot of your needs. What if I start a socialist revolution and you refuse the invitation?LOL Steve The very fact that you are obsessed with this silly – not to say tiresome – "universal exchange protocol" of yours and that you insist on exchanges taking a quid pro quo form and that these should be quantified, suggests to me that you have still quite a long way to go before you break with a capitalist mindset. Also, you should be aware that neither you nor even a group of like-minded individuals are hoing to be able to "start a socialist revolution", anyway. It has to be the conscious act of a working class majority. Are you flirting with Leninist ideas now?
@Robbo,Timebanks.org. check it out. the revolution has started without you and is growing. A bunch of people got together and built a system already that does a lot of what I am building on. the timebanks initiative is growing and someday might encompass a working class majority of followers and participants. What have your old school socialist done, except squander the monentum of the masses seeking freedom and community. You had whole nations allegiant to communism and socialism and still failed. You need a new plan because what you're trying is dying, but you're sticking with the course. Try something new and better is my strategy. I dont' really care if something you misrepesent as my idea was tried by lenninst. This is not lenninism that I'm proposing. This is not communism that I'm proposing, this is not socialism as you and others have pointed out. I'm prooposing a lot of things, but none of them come form your mostly discredited philosophies. A lot of what I've worked out independently using reasoning and logic and understanding of human behavior happens to agree and support some or most parts of socialism or communism or maybe lenninsim. That's kind of how I ended up here lookin to understand those better and what it would mean for society. But my idea is much bigger than those ideas and my ideas may seem to be lenninism if you chooose one specefic use for them with specefic limitations on the ideas. If Marx argued about capitalism and production ideas that were conceptually larger and above individual exchanges, then I'm arguing a conept larger and a step above economic systems too in the same way. The practical effect of my unversal values system protocol is to give everyone and every exchange their own economy and they can make it a lenninist economy or a marx economy or a capitalist economy depending on their own free choices. But I've worked that part out and now I'm working on detailed solutions for how best to exchange any kind of value, both tangible and non-tangible and subjective or objective values. how did lenninist russia make exchange agreements with capitalist nations? There was trade and exchange of ideas and values and capital goods between the two societies. What I'm doing lately is formalizing and simplifying that to make it ubuiquitous and ever pressent and accessible as a more convenient tool for the public.
Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:robbo203 wrote:Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:Well, yes I agree. I've proposed an answer for you and you have not yet perceived it. I'm starting a great movement that answers a lot of your needs. What if I start a socialist revolution and you refuse the invitation?*The very fact that you are obsessed with this silly – not to say tiresome – "universal exchange protocol" of yours and that you insist on exchanges taking a quid pro quo form and that these should be quantified, suggests to me that you have still quite a long way to go before you break with a capitalist mindset. Also, you should be aware that neither you nor even a group of like-minded individuals are hoing to be able to "start a socialist revolution", anyway. It has to be the conscious act of a working class majority. Are you flirting with Leninist ideas now?
@Robbo, how did lenninist russia make exchange agreements with capitalist nations?
Same as any other, emerging from feudalism, capitalist nation, at a great disadvantage as a potential competitor.
Quote:There was trade and exchange of ideas and values and capital goods between the two societies.They were not two societies.They were the same capitalist society, at different developmental stages.
Quote:What I'm doing lately is formalizing and simplifying that to make it ubuiquitous and ever pressent and accessible as a more convenient tool for the public.but is not necessary as Robin points out above *. It may even be of some use in the present day in local exchange networks and so on, but you are flogging a dead horse on here, as it is irrelevant in a free access, production for use , commonly owned, post-capitalist society.
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