We need to talk about Bernie

[ALB]

Quote:

only sheep need leaders

I'm beginning to wonder whether this slogan is correct. I am on holiday in the middle of Wales and was stopped on the road by a farmer's daughter and told to wait as a flock of sheep was coming. I looked carefully for a leading sheep but couldn't identify one. Their movement appeared to be governed from behind by someone in a landrover and two sheepdogs.I am not sure what the political consequences of this are.

[SocialistPunk]

mcolome1 wrote:

Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are the most unpopular candidates,  which indicates that only a minority group of peoples are supporting both of them. Many polls have indicated that Bernie Sanders as  an independent and as a Democratic party nominee had better opportunity of defeating Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.

Hi Mcolome,Do you have any links or articles to back up your statement above? I'm more interested in any stuff you have on old Trumpy.

[Anonymous]

SocialistPunk wrote:

mcolome1 wrote:

Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are the most unpopular candidates,  which indicates that only a minority group of peoples are supporting both of them. Many polls have indicated that Bernie Sanders as  an independent and as a Democratic party nominee had better opportunity of defeating Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.

Hi Mcolome,Do you have any links or articles to back up your statement above? I'm more interested in any stuff you have on old Trumpy.

 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/hillary-clinton-now-loses_b_10102664.html    This is one of them. There are several of them in the internet, but maybe now his popularity has decreased

[Anonymous]

SocialistPunk wrote:

mcolome1 wrote:

Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are the most unpopular candidates,  which indicates that only a minority group of peoples are supporting both of them. Many polls have indicated that Bernie Sanders as  an independent and as a Democratic party nominee had better opportunity of defeating Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.

Hi Mcolome,Do you have any links or articles to back up your statement above? I'm more interested in any stuff you have on old Trumpy.

 http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/cnsnewscom-staff/nbcs-todd-hillary-clinton-43-percent-likely-democratic-caucus-goers-identifyor what they call  being a socialistHe did win the nomination because of electoral fraud and voter suppression.

[Anonymous]

ALB wrote:

Quote:

only sheep need leaders

I'm beginning to wonder whether this slogan is correct. I am on holiday in the middle of Wales and was stopped on the road by a farmer's daughter and told to wait as a flock of sheep was coming. I looked carefully for a leading sheep but couldn't identify one. Their movement appeared to be governed from behind by someone in a landrover and two sheepdogs.I am not sure what the political consequences of this are.

Sheeps are not led by another sheep, they are led by a pastor, and it is a very popular expression mentioned in the Bible.  The expression is metaphoric, which means that followers needs someone else to tell them what to dohttp://class-warfare.blogspot.com/2005/03/only-sheep-need-leaders.html In the Latin language the word pastor means pasture, or feeder, he was the person in charge of taking care and feeding the sheeps, and he defended them agains the attacks of the wild animal, and he placed them inside the sheepfold, and they were always following him

[alanjjohnstone]

Donald Trump takes 5-point lead over Hillary Clinton in post-convention national pollhttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/donald-trump-takes-5-point-lead-over-hillary-clinton-in-post-convention-national-poll-a7154761.htmlMeanwhile, Sanders pleads with his supporters to vote for Clinton and is booed. He begs them to stop booing every mention of Clinton’s name made in speeches.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/dnc-2016-bernie-sanders-booed-by-own-supporters-after-asking-them-to-vote-for-hillary-clinton-a7155616.html

[Anonymous]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

Donald Trump takes 5-point lead over Hillary Clinton in post-convention national pollhttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/donald-trump-takes-5-point-lead-over-hillary-clinton-in-post-convention-national-poll-a7154761.htmlMeanwhile, Sanders pleads with his supporters to vote for Clinton and is booed. He begs them to stop booing every mention of Clinton’s name made in speeches.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/dnc-2016-bernie-sanders-booed-by-own-supporters-after-asking-them-to-vote-for-hillary-clinton-a7155616.html

They are saying that between 40% and 50% of  his supporters are not going to vote for Hillary Clinton and 25% of his supporter are going to vote for Donald Trump. This is different to the situation that took place during the election of Georg Bush versus  Ralph Nader who has been accused of stealing votes from the Democratic partyBernie Sanders now wants to become a fireman and put water on the fire, when he does know that the Democratic party leadership was involved in several actions to stop his nomination, and electoral fraud was committed against him, and he has spent most of his life running as an independent candidate and now he is a fervent democratsThe Republican are not the only ones guilty of electoral fraud, the Democrats also have done the same and this is not the first time, they did it during the election of John F Kennedy against Richard Nixon, as an article published by the SOYMB it says that JFK  was the real conspiracy

[Anonymous]

Bernie Sanders is just another crook. Millions of dollars given by the workers to financially support his campaign were used to attract the young peoples and young workers to the Democratic Party. Since the very beginning peoples with political eyes knew that he was going to capitulate

[Anonymous]

ALB wrote:

jondwhite wrote:

Surely a domain name to attract people is not as good as a high Google ranking?

The US comrades have that in hand too:

Quote:

comrade S … has agreed to create the site and take the technical measures needed to get it high on the lists of sites that people get when they do the search.

What they need is a public discussion forum

[SonofRage]

mcolome1 wrote:

Bernie Sanders and his so called political revolution is gone with the wind, he went back again to the Club of Millionaires known as the US Congress.Only workers as a whole can make a real political economical revolution,  we do not need leaders, only sheep need leaders, with the proper subjective ideas in our minds we can overthrow this worldly economical system.We do not need philosophers, we need a coherent  socialist theory in our heads

 I think we all need to be leaders. Ideas are important, but it has to be more than in our heads. Theory and practice need to have a dialectical relationship. We should be in the streets as part of this struggle. We can spread the idea of real socialism, but at the same time learn from the struggle.This is sure to ruffle some feathers, but I've been really thinking about entryism as a tactic.Jill Stein of the Green Party has been in the streets and the Democratic Socialists of America have been taking advantage of this as well. The World Socialist Party (US) does not have the numbers or the infrastructure to compete with that right now, so I feel like we need to figure out how to relate to and be a part of this struggle. I don't think we should be active in the Green Party, our constitution actually forbids it ("46. No member shall belong to another political organization nor render support to any movement in conflict with the party."), but it's tempting to argue that perhaps we should change our constitution and perhaps work within DSA when it makes sense…I know, I know! Hear me out though. The "democratic socialist" part of their name puts them in a position to take advantage of the "branding" that Sanders has used to inspire his mobilization. They've really taken advantage of this. Looking at the history of the WSPUS, we were a break away from the Socialist Party of America. In these times where we're tiny, perhaps it makes some sense to take a step back and be active in that kind of formation while at the same time retaining the WSM identity and arguing for our vision of socialism as part of their Left Caucus. Crazy idea, I know, but I think we need to look at our current state and capacity in the United States. Judging by the number of Bernie Sanders yard signs in my neighborhood, I suspect recruiting folks to an organization with the name "Democratic Socialists of America" which has a presense and infrastructure to plug into where I live in New York City would be realtively easy. It would provide a builtin audience to educate on real socialism. The danger of course is being involved with what is essentially a reformist organization (though there are no doubt actual revolutionaries in DSA as well) and the problems that can come with entryism.

[Anonymous]

SonofRage wrote:

mcolome1 wrote:

Bernie Sanders and his so called political revolution is gone with the wind, he went back again to the Club of Millionaires known as the US Congress.Only workers as a whole can make a real political economical revolution,  we do not need leaders, only sheep need leaders, with the proper subjective ideas in our minds we can overthrow this worldly economical system.We do not need philosophers, we need a coherent  socialist theory in our heads

 I think we all need to be leaders. Ideas are important, but it has to be more than in our heads. Theory and practice need to have a dialectical relationship. We should be in the streets as part of this struggle. We can spread the idea of real socialism, but at the same time learn from the struggle.This is sure to ruffle some feathers, but I've been really thinking about entryism as a tactic.Jill Stein of the Green Party has been in the streets and the Democratic Socialists of America have been taking advantage of this as well. The World Socialist Party (US) does not have the numbers or the infrastructure to compete with that right now, so I feel like we need to figure out how to relate to and be a part of this struggle. I don't think we should be active in the Green Party, our constitution actually forbids it ("46. No member shall belong to another political organization nor render support to any movement in conflict with the party."), but it's tempting to argue that perhaps we should change our constitution and perhaps work within DSA when it makes sense…I know, I know! Hear me out though. The "democratic socialist" part of their name puts them in a position to take advantage of the "branding" that Sanders has used to inspire his mobilization. They've really taken advantage of this. Looking at the history of the WSPUS, we were a break away from the Socialist Party of America. In these times where we're tiny, perhaps it makes some sense to take a step back and be active in that kind of formation while at the same time retaining the WSM identity and arguing for our vision of socialism as part of their Left Caucus. Crazy idea, I know, but I think we need to look at our current state and capacity in the United States. Judging by the number of Bernie Sanders yard signs in my neighborhood, I suspect recruiting folks to an organization with the name "Democratic Socialists of America" which has a presense and infrastructure to plug into where I live in New York City would be realtively easy. It would provide a builtin audience to educate on real socialism. The danger of course is being involved with what is essentially a reformist organization (though there are no doubt actual revolutionaries in DSA as well) and the problems that can come with entryism.

Not only with others party……. We do not make alliance with leftwingers and  political parties that promote poverty. The main aim of those party is to run capitalism in the name of the working class,it has been tested several times in different parts of the world, and the medication has been worst than the diseaseThe Green Party is a capitalist party like any other political party who want to reform capitalism in a more radical way., as all the others so called socialists and communist parties The CPUSA has spent 8 years supporting Barack Obama, by the meantime  he has spent several years invading others countries, and prolonging the war in the Middle east, as a socialist I would feel  ashamed of supporting that type of situation, killer is not only the one that put the knife on the cow, it is also the person that hold the legs of the cow.I have been  in all those alliances, popular fronts, accords, committee,  etc, etc, and they do not work, I have been inside those movements. The only thing that we have received on the streets are being beaten by the police, taken to jail,  and dead peoples on the pavements, and capitalism has continued live and kicking.Bernie Sanders had many followers because peoples are still attached to the carriage of reformism, but a real socialist party  make the same campaign, trying to replace capitalism for socialism,  they will not even obtain one vote, and peoples will not give a penny on contribution,  and also most of the US workers are totally confused on what socialism really is, the ruling class has done a good job in the minds of the workers, two hundred years of bourgoise propaganda .The positive thing about Bernie Sanders is that the expression socialism is not a dirty word any longer in a country governed by reactionaries and backward right wingers, even more, it has done like in the so called third world countries where communists and socialists have been taken to jail, and in the US the legal system executed several during the time of the cold war, and they were reformist too.The WSPUS has a good website with good articles, but, they shoud create a public discussion forum, but they do not want to do that, and they should provide more political education to their members, and implement a better selection process of their potential members 

[jondwhite]

I'm sure WSPUS could exchange speakers and audiences with the DSA given the inclination. Nothing in hostility clauses stops this or mandates personal hostility.

[Anonymous]

jondwhite wrote:

I'm sure WSPUS could exchange speakers and audiences with the DSA given the inclination. Nothing in hostility clauses stops this or mandates personal hostility.

Maybe not in the US but the SPGB overwhelmingly passed this motion at its 2015 Conference.

Quote:

Conference re-affirms that in accordance with Principle 7 of the Declaration of Principles there is an obligation on members to be hostile to parties which support capitalism.

[jondwhite]

I take 'hostility' to mean relating to other political parties which support capitalism by electoral pacts, lending support or endorsing candidates or participating in their campaigns or voting for their legislation? I presume 'hostility' does not preclude speaking at or attending non-SPGB events or non-members speaking at or attending SPGB events?

[alanjjohnstone]

Bernie praises Clintonhttp://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/08/05/i-support-hillary-clinton-so-should-everyone-who-voted-meOne day she is an apologist fo Wall St and the next, she is the hope of the world with caveats…Socialists follow ideas, not men or women. If you sympathise with the ideas of the WSM, then it is incumbent upon you to advocate them in your circles and actively opposing mistaken positions.  You will soon discover that your popularity in the "left-wing" movement fades. Ideas in the head are permitted but once you begin to make them vocal you'll find yourself isolated and deemed a "threat". As for the exchange of speakers, the WSPUS has indeed exercised this, at least, individual members have spoken as guests.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-VDCO1y_Zghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8V4uV0_NxEI think Gnome is correct in inferring that it is the type and nature of the meeting which is important. I believe that the SPGB now has a more appropriate style in formatting public meetings as a forum or Q and A sessions rather than formal debates, although at times these are better suited to the topic..as in Buick V Ticktin on a specific difference of view. The case of the US has to be flexible…as Son of Rage points out and we all agree, there is at the moment no real functioning WSPUS that can offer the working class a viable alternative right now. It is an aspiration for the future.  It is up to American comrades to consider the most effective means of growing and conveying the principles of the WSM. Getting involved within broader non-socialist but not party-partisan movements has to be thought about. Attending their meetings to contribute is naturally the first step. Developing a working relationship is vital. I often think about the case of trade unionists…we participate, we are active…but we agitate, too, for increased democracy but also for different objectives, such as industrial unionism. We don't sit back and remain passive when our class requires us to resist, whether in work-places or within our communities…And we require a socialist party to be built. I often think we are too quick to evolve. A political party is not half a dozen individuals getting together with a party-name and a Declaration of Principles. Baby-steps first…initially an informal study or discussion group…then a more structured political group…and when enough support has been gathered to create a branch structure of some sorts (perhaps regional as we have found necessary in the UK), then perhaps forming a political party with aims and goals to actually be engaged in.     

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