The WSM and the future identity of the SPGB and SPC

[Anonymous]

ALB wrote:

So let's not stir things up but let sleeping dogs lie.

Just when it was thought safe to go back into the water….. 

[steve colborn]

 That's how voting for conference is carried out now. Conference votes ARE party polls even if they are not called that.It is an individual interpretation that conference votes Are party polls. If, in "my" view, they were indeed to be percieved in this way, then they would be so deemed and it would have been specifically stated, if for no other reason than to prevent this type of confusion. They were not, nor are. The "interpretation" of an individual or individuals, notwithstanding!!!

[SocialistPunk]

If the blurb regarding Party polls is still in the Party rule book then, as Steve says it isn't open to interpretation regarding Conference votes being just as good as a Party poll.I imagine Party polls are useful to deal conclusively with issues of considerable singular importance, and are not used that often. As such they carry considerable weight, probably the reason why they must be overturned by another poll.

YMS wrote:

Not really, another conference resolution could do the trick. Always go to the lowest level body that can do the job. In fact a branch poll or floor resolution could clarify the interpretation between the various resolutions

Not really sure what to make of the above quote, it seems to accept that Party polls are the higher authority, yet claims the mess can be cleared up with "the lowest level body that can do the job". That is precisely what has happened, a decision to eliminate a multiple identity Party crisis, has been "whittled away" by Conference decisions with the interpretation that Conference is just like a Party poll. And what a mess that has made.In reality I'm not really that bothered whether or not the SPgb bends its own rules to suit whomever. For me it's simply further proof that the squabble over multi identities will never go away. The move back to the full title with Great Britain in it, has probably come about as a reaction to the lack of success the abbreviated title has brought. The probability is very high that the opposite will happen sometime in the not too distant future. So it will continue, until at some point a growing WSM takes charge and ends the problem for the SPgb. Why wait til that day? Why keep repeating the same damaging mistakes over and over.The Party needs one identity, one Public Image. Surely it is obvious which one, World Socialist Party (..). 

[steve colborn]

Hi Socialist Punk, tried to bring to the attention of whomsoever, the attempted obfuscation of this thread, no go. Apparently it's oh fe to be off topic and inflammatory!I'll get a warning or ban but who cares. What I have called attention to, is allowed. Trying ti wind up non-members!!! Way to go for a spirit of fraternity there. Anyway, at least it would give me time to spread the message to fellow workers, it's no use on here.

[alanjjohnstone]

Quote:

The last thing we want is another big, divisive debate over the name.

Let us have it instead about the effectiveness of us identifying the party's case with people. If they don't understand what we stand for, they aren't likely to care a hoot about what we are called…. Maybe we should call ourselves, the Planetary Party…just kidding

[moderator1]

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[ALB]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

Maybe we should call ourselves, the Planetary Party…just kidding

Actually, the current Party Treasurer once suggested we should call ourselves the Earth Socialist Party, or ESP.

[Anonymous]

I know I keep repeating myself but:I don't think we need a name change, we need to use the same name in the same style on every public document. Simples The Socialist Party (WSM) in a unique and distinctive style.  I can't understand why members would wish to continue the confusion by using different names: Like the top of this siteI have to say a bunch of school kids setting up a project group would agree on a single logo for their group and not use a multitude of confusing images.Why is it so difficult for people to grasp?Lots of styles and names result in a party hidden from public view. 

[Young Master Smeet]

Party polls still outrank conference decisions (and conference decisions are not party polls).  An example is the admittance of members of the armed forces, which IIRC did have a party poll overturn a party poll.  Nonetheless, the rules have been observed, a p[arty poll endorsed conference's decision, and then conference changed its mind.  Democracy means there is no final decision.

[ALB]

Vin Maratty wrote:

I know I keep repeating myself but:

We all here are. It's a bit like a pub conversation.

Vin Maratty wrote:

The Socialist Party (WSM) in a unique and distinctive style.  I can't understand why members would wish to continue the confusion by using different names: Like the top of this site

But, to continue the pub conversation, the internet being international (think worldwide web) that still doesn't identify which part of the world our site comes from. A more logical version of your proposal would be to make this site a page on the site of the …. World Socialist Movement:http://www.worldsocialism.org/Actually, I think it can be:http://www.worldsocialism.org/english/companion-parties-socialismJust remembered too that between 1988 and 2008 the masthead of the Socialist Standard stated "The journal of The Socialist Party — Companion Party of the World Socialist Movement". We can got back to that when that 2008 resolution is rescinded next year whether by Party Poll or Conference Resolution

[SocialistPunk]

Vin Maratty wrote:

I know I keep repeating myself but:I don't think we need a name change, we need to use the same name in the same style on every public document. Simples The Socialist Party (WSM) in a unique and distinctive style.  I can't understand why members would wish to continue the confusion by using different names: Like the top of this siteI have to say a bunch of school kids setting up a project group would agree on a single logo for their group and not use a multitude of confusing images.Why is it so difficult for people to grasp?Lots of styles and names result in a party hidden from public view. 

A very valid point Vin, whatever the outcome of this discussion it is painfully obvious that the Party needs to decide what name and identity it wants to be known by. A school kids project would have this issue sorted out early on. It's basic stuff.I don't see it as a case of members not being able to grasp it, rather a case of difference of opinion as to which of the two identities the Party needs to rally under. ALB said on another thread, the Party thought it had been done in 1988, but as can be seen with this discussion so far the Party has been unable to pin it down. If "lawyerly" argument over interpretation happens every time an attempt is made, it doesn't bode well for a socialist revolution.My suggestion for adopting the World Socialist Party tag is about more than a simple name change. It's about becoming a clearly recognisable part of a world movement, not to mention it would present a much needed PR oportunity.Then there's the added bonus of the multi identity problem being left behind once and for all.But whatever happens the Party desperately needs one identity.

[alanjjohnstone]

Can i raise the question….What is the World Socialist Movement?And another question..What does companion party of it actually entail other than acceptance of the D of P and acceptance by the other members?If some of us are intent upon emphasising the identity of the WSM for the SPGB, shouldn't we be making the WSM something more definite and concrete than a mere expression or aspiration, a rather passive non-active entity. Shouldn't the WSM be a functioning  structure?I suggested a while back on some thread or another that if we have been successful using Skype for EC meetings then we should delve further into its usage…or the interactive system Brian J believes is an improvement that TZM  uses for their worldwide internet discussions to hold WSM conferences eventually in the long run leading to a unified World Socialist Party. The members of the SOYMB blog have agreed amongst themselves that the way forward for it is to become more a WSM blog once we sort out the templates and formatting of the blog site and have acquired volunteer bloggers from the companion parties. A work in progress and a slow one unfortunately. At one time we experimented with "World Socialist"…but next time instead of simply having it as a print magazine we can also publish it as an E-zine. (Maybe a transformed blog serving as the prototype.)   

[rodshaw]

Well, I did suggest way back,"maybe a better policy would be for us to push the recently re-vamped WSM umbrella website as the flagship, and put more content on there. Maybe, for example, the general bit of this discussion forum should be on there rather than here."

[Anonymous]

Vin Maratty wrote:

I know I keep repeating myself but:I don't think we need a name change, we need to use the same name in the same style on every public document. Simples

Of course, Vin, you're absolutely correct.  My area of disagreement with you is about what we call ouselves.It will come as no surprise that I favour using the full name of the party on most occasions and certainly where confusion with a similarly named organisation is not only likely but virtually unavoidable.  As a member of a branch who, by dint of its regular literature stalls, has arguably had more contact with workers than any other branch over the past couple of years, I have personally lost track of the number of occasions when workers, predominately young workers, have thought we were something to do with the outfit otherwise known as the ex-Millies.  There will be those who will downplay or dismiss this as unimportant but as things stand there is confusion, aided and abetted by inconsistency due, as Vin as pointed out, to us referring to ourselves differently depending on the circumstances.  This issue needs to be addressed urgently; reference to "white flags" and the use of emotive Paisleyite language is manifestly not going to assist that process.There is an equally important reason why we should use our full name and this argument has been addressed on more than one occasion by a regular contributor to this and other forums:- 

Quote:

Actually we are known well outside the hard left. Amongst the soft left too and beyond them to people who are interested in politics generally and of course labour historians. And there are many other writers, essayists and bloggers like the one Vin has drawn attention to on another thread some of whom will be ex-members. I agree that this is still only a small percentage of the population in general but it's the same minority which would be interested at first in some new (ly named) party. So why throw away the progress we have already made in getting known amongst such people?It would be bonkers to change our name and throw all this away. I mentioned before what I think is the way forward. It's to keep our official name (with its history) but emphasise more that we are part of a World Socialist Movement, a name we have also registered with the Electoral Commission and used on the ballot paper for the recent Euroelections.

(emphasis added)http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/world-socialist-movement/wsm-and-future-identityof-spgb-and-spc?page=8#comment-17059And on Spintcom:-

Quote:

Nobody denies that we have been (much) better known as "the SPGB" and "the Socialist Party of Great Britain" than as "the Socialist Party"…… 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/spintcom/conversations/messages/11435I have no problem with the use of the shortened name form of the party on selected occasions:-

Quote:

……The practice of the Socialist Standard, for instance, was to use the full name once in an article and then "The Socialist Party"……

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/spintcom/conversations/messages/12614 BTW, Vin, welcome back into the party…

[SocialistPunk]

Alan, I think you're definately onto something. You've talked before about the potential of the internet and Party identity. I've highlighted in bold the bit that has put into words the vision I was trying to convey. So simple and obvious it's beautiful.

alanjjohnstone wrote:

I suggested a while back on some thread or another that if we have been successful using Skype for EC meetings then we should delve further into its usage…or the interactive system Brian J believes is an improvement that TZM uses for their worldwide internet discussions to hold WSM conferences eventually in the long run leading to a unified World Socialist Party.

At some point in the development of the WSM, prospective members will become members of a unified World Party, with countries becoming mere geographical identifiers on a digital map. In readiness for that time it would be sensible for the SPgb to adopt it now.The SPgb is probably not growing, a few new members are likely just replacing members lost to old age and ones who become disheartened. To grow the Party needs to excite a younger active audience. In this digital age, what is likely to do that, clinging to an Edwardian identity that gives off a slight, unintentional nationalistic air, or one that embraces a global identity?      

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