The Religion word
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Mike, we didn't evolve from monkeys. Monkeys and humans have common ancestors. This is a fact. So the question of whether we evolved or were created is simply not a matter for speculation, anymore than the question of whether the world is flat or spherical is a matter for speculation. We know with certainty that it's neither!
Did anyone catch the Channel 4 docu' "Secrets of the Vatican", Tuesday gone? Was it interesting? Is it worth an hour of my time?
So, the Prime Minister of Britain recons this is a christian country. By Britain I assume he means the United Kingdom. Well, let's see what the 2011 census reveals. People who said they were christian:
England…………..31,479,876……….59.4%Wales ………………1,763,299…………57.6%Scotland……………2,850,199…………53.8%N. Ireland…………..1,490,588…………82.3%No religion………….16,221,509………25.7%Total population….63,182,178 Taking these figures as they stand, the prime minister might have a point, but practicing christians attend church and only6% of the U.K. population, some 3,790,930 attend church. Hardly a christian country, I would say!Perhaps most of the Christians in Britain are like PM Cameron, when in 2008 he said that ,"his religious faith is a bit like the reception for Magic FM in the Chilterns: it sort of comes and goes"
I just lifted this from Wikipedia, entitled "Christian Values", but it is interesting and telling. I wonder where Cameron's views and actions fit.
wrote:Biblical authorityThe biblical teachings of Jesus include:[1]Love of God: "You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might." (an excerpt from the Shema), -Matthew 22:37Fidelity in marriage: "Whom God has joined together let no man put asunder"Renunciation of worldly goods: "Gather not your riches up upon this earth, for there your heart will be also",Renunciation of violence: "If a man strikes you on one cheek, turn the other cheek",Forgiveness of sins: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us",Unconditional love: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you".Modern use in worldwide right-wing politicsIn the 21st century United States, Australia, UK and other countries, the phrases "Christian values" and "family values" are used by conservative political groups to describe some or all of the following political stances:censorship of sexual content, especially in movies and on television.[2]the desirability of laws against induced abortionsexual abstinence outside of marriage and abstinence-only education[3]the promotion of intelligent design to be taught in public schools and colleges as an alternative to evolution.[4]the desirability of laws against same-sex marriagesupport for laws against the acceptance of homosexuality into mainstream society[5]the desirability of organized prayer in public schools[6]Modern use in worldwide liberal politicsIn the 21st century United States, Australia, UK and other countries, the phrases "Christian values" and "family values" are used by Liberal political groups to describe some or all of the following political stances:support for a culture of empathy and compassion, seen as central to Christianity among a diverse range of religions and worldviews; favouring individuals, families (of all compositions) and small communities' interests over the interests of large corporations and the powerful;protection of the environment as the product of a deep reverence for God's creation;the undesirability of war other than as a last resort, and a respect for diplomacy;a living wage for all, seen as a mark of concern for the physical welfare of "the least among us"a high, progressive income tax to promote greater income equality in keeping with Jesus' words in support of the poor and against excessive riches;promoting separation of church and state[citation needed] and religious tolerance, consistent with the concept of Christ's kingdom not being "of this world" and warnings against the hunger for potentially corrupting temporal power throughout the BibleSome more UK statsThe 2013 British Social Attitudes Survey reported that 48% of respondents claimed they did not belong to a religion. The proportion of people who described themselves as belonging to the Church of England was just 20%, down from 40% in 1983. Church of England's own figures, 800,000 people would have attended a service on a typical Sunday in 2012. This is approximately half the number that attended in 1968. In 2011 there were 51,880 weddings, 139,751 baptisms and 162,526 funerals conducted by Church of England clergy. In 2011, about one third of England's 20,000 state-funded schools were faith schools, of which 68% were affiliated to the Church of England schools and 30% were Roman Catholic. In a 2006 Ipsos MORI poll, "religious groups and leaders" topped the list of domestic groups that people said had too much influence over ministers. A 2013 Lancaster University study of British Catholics suggested they were wildly at odds with their spiritual leaders on matters of personal morality. According to the survey, only 9% would feel guilty using contraception and just 19% would support a ban on abortion. More favoured allowing same-sex marriage than were opposed. The 2011 census suggested there were 14.1 million people of no religion compared with 7.7 million a decade previously. This represented a rise from 15% to 25% of the population. It also showed an increase in the number of Muslims, with the proportion of the population in 2011 standing at 4.8%, or 2.7 million, up 2% or 1.5 million in 2001. The Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish and Sikh faiths all registered increases. There were 817,000 Hindus in 2011, a rise of 264,000 since 2001. The Jewish faith also rose by 3,000 over the last decade from 260,000 to 263,000.
Interesting video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3mX0YRrjM
alanjjohnstone wrote:Some more UK statsThe 2013 British Social Attitudes Survey reported that 48% of respondents claimed they did not belong to a religion. The proportion of people who described themselves as belonging to the Church of England was just 20%, down from 40% in 1983. Church of England's own figures, 800,000 people would have attended a service on a typical Sunday in 2012. This is approximately half the number that attended in 1968. In 2011 there were 51,880 weddings, 139,751 baptisms and 162,526 funerals conducted by Church of England clergy. In 2011, about one third of England's 20,000 state-funded schools were faith schools, of which 68% were affiliated to the Church of England schools and 30% were Roman Catholic. In a 2006 Ipsos MORI poll, "religious groups and leaders" topped the list of domestic groups that people said had too much influence over ministers. A 2013 Lancaster University study of British Catholics suggested they were wildly at odds with their spiritual leaders on matters of personal morality. According to the survey, only 9% would feel guilty using contraception and just 19% would support a ban on abortion. More favoured allowing same-sex marriage than were opposed. The 2011 census suggested there were 14.1 million people of no religion compared with 7.7 million a decade previously. This represented a rise from 15% to 25% of the population. It also showed an increase in the number of Muslims, with the proportion of the population in 2011 standing at 4.8%, or 2.7 million, up 2% or 1.5 million in 2001. The Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish and Sikh faiths all registered increases. There were 817,000 Hindus in 2011, a rise of 264,000 since 2001. The Jewish faith also rose by 3,000 over the last decade from 260,000 to 263,000.Ah, the sigh of the oppressed, the soul of a soulless world. It takes many forms.What I'd like to know is, did all the Vikings who went to Valhalla transfer to heaven at some point, or achieve a state of Nirvana? If not, where are they now?
I was wondering what other socialists would say to religious supporters regarding their idea that without a creator we have no moral authority? Or simply put, that the morality of atheists is simply borrowed from an overwhelmingly theistic history of human kind?I'm a bit ropey on this issue as I don't know enough about the history of ethics or belief systems. So can anyone shed any light on this topic?
To clarify a point. When I say "we have no moral authority", I do not mean socialists. I refer to anyone who does not have a creator based belief system.
I would tell them that they have the cart before the horse. Their religion is a product of their cultural and political system. It is man-made. Their belief system is just that – a belief that can't be substantiated. Any moral dimension, whatever that means, therefore comes from society, not a god. And if this means there is no moral dimension at all, then we can do without it. As socialists we evaluate things differently.
Hi rodshaw,I already have that one in the bag, so to speak. What I was looking for, and it may not be available, was some sort of actual historical, anthropology based explanation or addition.There is a danger that this thread may end up tangled with the one on socialism, morality and logic, and I'd rather it not as my enquiry was specifically about the religious view that morality, ethics, values etc came from a creator. Simply telling them that their belief is based on their cultural, political system is generally not enough explanation of itself, so any evidence based info would be beneficial. Whether that exists is another matter and is the reason for my post.
I had an Italian co-worker and when we were discussing politics he sometimes suggested things would be a lot better if we shot all "the men in black" …This was before the movie so it wasn't those men in blackTurned out he meant priests and particularly Jesuits.Also turned out he had one time been a drinking buddy of Dario Fo.
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