Syriza
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LBird wrote:duncan lucas wrote:Stuart I base realism on actual actions not words and the fact that the SNP is being voted in by a majority of sCots thats realism not wishful thinking . I know you would rather they voted for the Socialist Party but they dont thats a fact .
duncan, I'd tell your fellow workers that voting 'No' is voting for shit with sugar on it, and voting 'Yes' is voting for shit with honey on it.And after the vote, either winner will withdraw the sweetener, and force them to eat shit.The answer is not to eat shit, and become a socialist.If your fellow workers are determined to eat shit, you can't prevent them, and can only try to provide an alternative, that might one day become a palatable alternative to shit, for them.That's 'realism' and 'fact', for them.
Surely Duncan's 'truth' is that workers are voting for the SNP. 'Workers democracy' in action? I don't think it's right but there you go.
jondwhite wrote:Surely Duncan's 'truth' is that workers are voting for the SNP. 'Workers democracy' in action? I don't think it's right but there you go.I'm not sure what you're talking about, jd."Workers' democracy" implies a class conscious and politically organised proletariat, not 'isolated individuals' who don't most often even call themselves "workers" voting for bourgeois parties.What makes you think unconscious scots voting for the SNP is 'workers' democracy in action'?I'm surprised at your statement, given the emphasis, as I understand it, within the SPGB, of the need for consciousness amongst workers.They're eating shit, as far as I can see, and I think that it's best to be open with them about it, and say 'don't eat shit!'.
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LBird wrote:"Workers' democracy" implies a class conscious and politically organised proletariat, not 'isolated individuals' who don't most often even call themselves "workers" voting for bourgeois parties.Here we go again Socialism as 'workers democracy' by 'class conscious workers'. How many other classes will there be with opposing interests? Why will we need 'class consciousness'? There will be no capitalist class!No proletariat for that matter.
Vin, i might be mistaken but isn't the context we discussing about pre-socialism and about the actual process of achieving it…and LB is referring to the lack of consciousness amongst the working class, something we do require to get to socialism.The debate as i see it is how this class consciousness arises…what we do have as such are the prevalence of false ideologies (some hate that term) as nationalism which is diverting workers from achieving it …the fact that workers in Sotland offered their support to SNP is the same distorted view of the world they possess that makes them vote Labour or even Tory (the Alf Garnett) or Ukip. How we change that mistaken worldview people hold is what we should be discussing…
ajj wrote:Vin, i might be mistaken but isn't the context we discussing about pre-socialism and about the actual process of achieving it…and LB is referring to the lack of consciousness amongst the working class, something we do require to get to socialism.alan, I've had this discussion with Vin many times, and he doesn't want to understand. Even ALB has tried to same trick to divert discussion.robbo has provided evidence that Marx too employed 'workers' to refer as a catch-all for 'producers', covering both communist and capitalist society.If I say 'producer', Vin and ALB object that I haven't mentioned class and workers…If I say 'worker', Vin and ALB object that classless society doesn't have workers…It's all a ruse to avoid the meat of any discussion, by those who can't keep up with subtleties, I fear.This has happened so many times, I have to believe that it's a conscious attempt to derail me.Clearly, the 'proletariat' will evolve into 'all society', as the process of revolution proceeds.
So is Lbird is now saying there will be no need for class conscious workers in socialism? Because he has clearly stated this over the last 12 months. Workers would need to be class conscious to keep control of scientific truth.So there will be no 'elites' to worry about in socialism because there will only be workers, no other opposing groups? Well I don't don't know what all the fuss has been about.
alanjjohnstone wrote:Vin, i might be mistaken but isn't the context we discussing about pre-socialism and about the actual process of achieving it…and LB is referring to the lack of consciousness amongst the working class, something we do require to get to socialism.The debate as i see it is how this class consciousness arises…what we do have as such are the prevalence of false ideologies (some hate that term) as nationalism which is diverting workers from achieving it …the fact that workers in Sotland offered their support to SNP is the same distorted view of the world they possess that makes them vote Labour or even Tory (the Alf Garnett) or Ukip. How we change that mistaken worldview people hold is what we should be discussing…You don't seriously believe that I have confused this issue of class consciousness. LBird is confused about what socialism is, never mind class consciousness but I have more important things to do: My eyebrows need plucking for my gig Saturday night.
LBird wrote:This has happened so many times, I have to believe that it's a conscious attempt to derail me.Clearly, the 'proletariat' will evolve into 'all society', as the process of revolution proceeds.evolve eh!? Sorry, what I should say is will the 'proletariat' continue to evolve when the wages system is abolished?
I tried posting on your blog about conspiracy theories but was blocked ,anybody willing to debate it ??
duncan lucas wrote:I tried posting on your blog about conspiracy theories but was blocked ,anybody willing to debate it ??You'll only find out the answer to that question by starting a new thread on the General Discussion forum. Go to the menu on the right and click on Create Content and click the appropriate box with the drop down menu.
Quote:Clearly, the 'proletariat' will evolve into 'all society', as the process of revolution proceeds.I think this was the early members of the SPGB view of the mass socialist party. Their model was most likely the German Social Democrats – vast numbers of associated social clubs and leisure groups. (I believe one of our German comrades is a member of a cheap holiday home society for workers in the tourist Black Forest that stemmed from this period) and all the periphery of the socialist parties in the UK …Clarion bikers, rambler groups, coops etc.The mass socialist party was a SOCIAList Party – a class party…something sometimes i suggest we should also think about…the cultural side of consciousness…We have been fortunate that we have and in the past always had writers able to expound on theatre and literature and poetry and art… One member left to join the cooperative party, and weren't they hoping to be this type of party…one that was not remote but organically linked to communities through the co-op stores and funeral clubs…Surely it is also this evolution approach is one shared by the anarchists…that those sectional workers councils and affinity groups would evolve..grow..spread…transform…crystallise …into all areas and aspects of society and i see no real reason why they should expect a political party not to. In Edinburgh Br we had a football team for a time, named Capital..a pun on the city being a capital and the players being mostly Marxists.Again to stay on topic, one of the reasons that Syriza succeeded was that it expanded into the "non-political" areas of of daily life from what i have read…food banks and that sort of thing. They were active socially as well as politically and related to workers as fellow workers, not as specialists apart…professional politicians and careerists…Syriza experts are not from the aloof, isolated penthouse offices of business but universities and NGOs that have links to communities…their roots are still within the soil that they sprouted from. Politics has to integrate with people…to be truthful…i think people is a better word than either proletariat or producers…and our slogan is an old one …Power to the People! And our social democracy is "of the people, by the people, for the people" …
Ironic and amusing information in this interview with a German historian on which country was the biggest debt defaulter of the last century:http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/economic-historian-germany-was-biggest-debt-transgressor-of-20th-century-a-769703.html
First it was scrip money the cure, now it is bit-money the solution….http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/22/can-a-parallel-digital-currency-solve-the-greek-financial-crisisEventually some will reach the conclusion that it is no money which will work
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