Syriza
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Couldnt agree more ALB think less "nationalist "and more socialist as that is what motivates Scots and they voted "en masse " that way. Even if you dont like the name go by the actions not just the words . Even socialist parties in other European countries acknowlege this fact.
From various articles i read on the Left, there is quite some criticism of Sinn Fein in the anti-water tax movement as being merely opportunistically jumping on the band-wagon…but i hear pot calling kettle black !! Iglesias should have looked at Northern Ireland and Sinn Fein in coalition government before making his remarks about them protecting the working class rights. There was the Iceland option open to the SNP, in the case of an 2008 independent Scotland, they would be in the EU but probably non Euro and pegged to the pound and Bank of England controls. But severe austerity would have been imposed not only by this event (and the financial recession , in general) but more likely the later collapse of the North Sea oil prices. Although it came with a downside too at the time it was the most popular policy of the Icelandic.Of course, the fear factor in the no camp said that those banks would have re-located to London if sovereignty had been in place so the problem still existed for the rump UK.
alanjjohnstone wrote:There was the Iceland optionAlmost forgot about that. There's a sort of precedent in that they held a referendum that rejected an international debt deal. The economy seems to be doing ok now, i.e growing, but I don't think they avoided austerity, did they?
"I don't think they avoided austerity, did they?"Nope, as i said in my post …there was still a downside … but there was also an acceptance at the time of self-sacrifice. Something being regretted now by many in Iceland and which the blog has posted upon fairly recently. http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2015/06/icelands-class-war.html
I recall also that Iceland was offered (or bluffed) a Russian bailout if its creditors didn't cough up extended loans which they then did and some are suggesting Greece do the same but i think the financial embargo on Russia over Ukraine thwarts that way out. Russia has not the readies in foreign currency…I'm a bit puzzled with all their abundance of liquid cash, China isn't being a bit more adventurous in offering Greece loans and buying debts…to get a big foothold in the EU…or do they actually need one?
In the end ,as far as the satrap EU (of the US ) is concerned its down to Obommer -aka-BB (Big Business ) allows Greece to leave or for that matter NATO (US base ) . At the moment he has Merkel,s arm twisted up her back to force her make concessions so that the US (BB) can stop Russian ""inteference " in this area of the World and as you know every area of the World is their property ,even China with US "spiking " the whole World . I do admire Greeces shrewd use of pitting one against the other ,even though a lot is theory in respect of Russia at this moment. But Greece have already been offered BRIC membership and their Banks help from Russia so Russia isnt in as poor a situation as the Western propaganda makes out . You have only to see beyong the lies /smokescreen of BBC/CNN/FOX etc. to see the truth ,
The KKE is urging abstention in the referendum or rather voting neither yes nor no but saying workers should put their proposals in the ballot box:http://inter.kke.gr/en/articles/The-referendum-on-the-5th-of-July-and-the-stance-of-the-KKE/
Quote:The people, through their activity and their choice in the referendum, must respond to the deception of the false question posed by the government and reject the proposal of the EU-IMF-ECB and also the proposal of the SYRIZA-ANEL government. Both contain barbaric anti-people measures, which will be added to the memoranda and application laws of the previous ND-PASOK governments. Both serve the interests of capital and capitalist profits.The KKE stresses that the people must not choose between Scylla and Charybdis, but must express, with all means available and in every way, their opposition to the EU and its permanent memoranda in the referendum. They must “cancel out” this dilemma by casting the proposal of the KKE as their vote into the ballot box.This could affect the outcome as the KKE got 5.5% of the votes, and 15 seats, in the general election earlier this year.
Here is what I imagine will be a widespread criticism by the rest of the Left of the KKE's position:
Quote:The Communist Party, betraying all the communist traditions in Greece, declared that it will put in the ballot box its own ticket. Practically, this means that is suggests an invalid vote and it implicitly helps the YES campaign.Of course they'd say the same as our traditional position of saying write "Σοσιαλισμός" across the ballot paper..If you want to go down the "lesser evil" road (which we don't) the problem is which — YES or NO? — is the lesser evil (in terms of short-term living standards). It's not clear. It might even be YES. But then no class-conscious worker will an ounce of dignity is going to vote that. The only possible case for voting NO would be one of working class dignity. Tsipras, however, is appealing to Greek national dignity. Which of course is why Golden Dawn is supporting him on this.
Just this minute got an email from -Left Unity confirming as of 20.20 GMT 5-7-2015 Greece has voted =OXI .I am sure the posters here will debate the pro,s and cons of this in great detail but at least Left Unity and I are happy about it they are "giving the finger " to -"austerity " -AKA Depression for the poor. Plenty more to talk about I think ?
You are beating a dead horse. Leftwingers will never learn their historical lesson, I know them as the palms of my hands, they will do the same thing over and over again , and they will continue placing false illusions in the minds of the workers..
So you are not "left-wing " Hmmm right and you also dont believe in a group gathering together for the sake of helping the poor ? So you must be right-wing ? . Its all very well coming out and saying this or that but onl;y actions count the people of Greece have taken decisive action and not an hour or two later you are dissing it ? So much for the will of the majority . The one % of the World rule the West so that would be fair ? right ? They are taking left-wing action you are talking who is achieving the most positive help for the poor ? No one is saying it will be easy and suffering is in store but like other countries that defied the IMF -AKA -US big business /World Banksters you can recover from it . Since when is Argentine paying the US debt vultures who bough Argenytine debt and now want billions back has Argentine said -okay ? nope .If you yourself are not taking actions to help the poor how can you critise others who will actually help the poor rather than political stances that people will not accept?? its time for action World wide befor BB starts WW3 by attacking Russia. You are either on the side of right and truthfulness that the EU/UK US know nothing about or you are on the side of the people you say are hurting the poor you cant have it both ways . So good luck Greece against the uncaring rich even though you dont seem "pure " in some p[eoples eyes . I am ALWAYS for the poor -sick-old and no fixed political viewpoint will change that because I believe in the poor first and politics second .
Duncan, you have been on this forum long enough to have read our attitude towards reformism. If you have not been availing yourself of our online articles and archive, exploring our political case, digging deeper into our ideas, then what is the point.You accuse us of being right-wing for holding the position that for the Greek working class there is no light at the end of the tunnel regardless of th path they choose. Several contributers have expressed sympathy for the sincerity of the Greek government to alleviate – NB not remove- austerity policies. Our over-view though is that whatever the referendum decides, it will still be the people paying for the ruling class mistakes and that the only solution is revolution. You can accuse us of being right-wing but it is the actual right-wing nationalists and the neo-nazis of Golden Dawn who also support a No vote…politics indeed creates strange bedfellows while the stalinist and trotskyist groups advocate abstention and are trying to turn the referendum into a vote on EU membership, not about austerity, at all. We try to be a principled party and that means applying our core ideas to current politics, not bending and shaping them to fit a square peg into a round hole in an opportunistic fashion to gain temporary popularity.
duncan lucas wrote:So you are not "left-wing " Hmmm right and you also dont believe in a group gathering together for the sake of helping the poor ? So you must be right-wing ? . Its all very well coming out and saying this or that but onl;y actions count the people of Greece have taken decisive action and not an hour or two later you are dissing it ? So much for the will of the majority . The one % of the World rule the West so that would be fair ? right ? They are taking left-wing action you are talking who is achieving the most positive help for the poor ? No one is saying it will be easy and suffering is in store but like other countries that defied the IMF -AKA -US big business /World Banksters you can recover from it . Since when is Argentine paying the US debt vultures who bough Argenytine debt and now want billions back has Argentine said -okay ? nope .If you yourself are not taking actions to help the poor how can you critise others who will actually help the poor rather than political stances that people will not accept?? its time for action World wide befor BB starts WW3 by attacking Russia. You are either on the side of right and truthfulness that the EU/UK US know nothing about or you are on the side of the people you say are hurting the poor you cant have it both ways . So good luck Greece against the uncaring rich even though you dont seem "pure " in some p[eoples eyes . I am ALWAYS for the poor -sick-old and no fixed political viewpoint will change that because I believe in the poor first and politics second .Right wing a nd left wings both are wings of the same bird known as capitalism, and both are not relevant to the world situation, and both are not going to resolve the problems of our world, and both are not a threat to capitalThe main problem of our world is the profit system, or capitalism, and it is not the particular problem of one country, or several countries, it is a world wide situation which involve all the workers of the whole world.The so called austerity measure it is only a reformist trend, the problem of our society takes place at the point of production, and the world is not controlled by bankers, the world is controlled by the capitalist market system , and the owners of the means of production. Banks do not produce any social value in our society, that is the main concern of the reformist left wingersWe are all poor because we must sell our labor power in order to survive, this is a world divided in rich and poor, and there is nothing in between, and the so called middle class, it is only a fallacy created by capitalism, we are workers because we do not own any means of productionsWars are the products of the rivalities among the capitalists for markets, and they are not created by coincidence, or because an individual wants to start a war, and it is not exclusive of one country, Russia is also part of the capitalist system , and the capitalist market, and they are also slave drivers like all the others countries, including the so called socialist countries which are also part of the capitalist market system.We are not a church, we are a poltiical organization, or a socialist party, and our immediate and future aim is socialism, or a society without wages slavery, moneyless, stateless, and the common possession of the means of productios. The christian churches are also working with the poor, and they have done nothing to resolve the problem of the market system, and they are not a threat to capitalismWe do not support right wingers, left wingers, government, leaders, states, or any kind of wars, including the so called national liberation wars, which only liberate one ruling class from another ruling class
I don't think many people were expecting a 61% No vote but it's pretty decisive. It looks as if the Greek government's gamble has paid off and it's now up to its creditor states in North Europe to decide whether or not to risk provoking a world financial crisis in which they would stand to lose more than they would by granting Greece some debt relief. Interesting times. But the issue is still not ending austerity (that's not possible) but the degree of further austerity. People in Greece are saying enough is enough. At least they're not taking it lying down.
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