Syria: will the West attack?
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Israel backs Al Qaeda, patching up their killers so they can go back and kill Christians, Shia Muslims, Alawites, Druze and other non-Sunni minorities:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3315347/Watch-heart-pounding-moment-Israeli-commandos-save-Islamic-militants-Syrian-warzone-risking-lives-sworn-enemies.htmlThat real realpolitik for you.
This first came to my notice a few months ago in an article that i read.Israel tried to justify this medical aid as humanitarian but declined to comment if they offered such humanitarian medical services to Hezbullah and Syrian government wounded. They were also accused of safely ushering rebel forces through the Occupied Golan Heights. I have often wondered why Al Qaida and ISIS have never ever launched any of their terror attacks directly against Israel. Are we to presume thier intelligence and security arrangements are so superior that such actions are simply not possible and the only terror attack possible is some teenager wielding a knife or driving a car into people?
There is a hospital in Israel that is providing medical attention to members of ISIS. The US news media are talking about radical Islamic women, but there are a lot of radical Christian women fighting in Syria.The right wingers in the US are saying that Obama is a Muslim, but they have historical amnesia due to the fact that Ronald Reagan called Al Qaeda as the freedom fighters, and the Embassy of Benghazi was a nest of terrorists
mcolome1 wrote:The right wingers in the US are saying that Obama is a Muslim,Apparently the "moderate" Jihadists in Syria also regard Obama as a Muslim but as a Shia one:http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-11-13/syrian-rebels-give-obama-a-bad-name-abu-hussein-
More on this story — from Ron Paul (despite ISIS supporting his idea of reintroducing gold as the currency):http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151214/1031727212/israel-nusra-al-qaeda-medical-assistance-syria.html
The Israeli’s have been treating wounded ISIS fighters in Israeli hospitals for over a year. A lot of the information on it first came from the Shiite Lebanese Hezbollah people however like Sheik Hassan Nasrallah . I think also some Egyptian “former” member of Bin Laden’s inner circle who had fought with him in Afghanistan, and presumably a ‘Sunni’ may have broke the story in a interview on Egyptian TV. It has been confirmed in reports from UN peacekeepers/observers who are still on the Golan border area from some UN resolution set up going back several years. Re exchange of personnel and materials in crates (probably weapons). Ideologically and politically the whole situation has become so absurd that it probably eclipses anything we have we have seen before. The Saudi’s and Israelis have joined forces and are now allies both supporting ISIS. The ‘anti Zionist’ ‘Sunni Palestinian Hamas’ and Shia Hezbollah have formed a de-facto alliance. The Shia Iranians (‘Persians’) are backing the historic ‘Sunni Arab’ opposition to the oppression of the ‘Palestinians’ in general and gaining credibility in the general ‘Arab’ diaspora for it. (There is a historic mutual hostity between the 'Persiians' and 'Arabs'.)Some 'Palestinians' and 'Arabs' are 'Christians'. And you can throw into the mix the ‘communist’ Kurd’s, Kurds in general. And then you have the Muslim Brotherhood, formerly backed to some extent by other Gulf monarchies eg Qatar; “We believe that the political reform is the true and natural gateway for all other kinds of reform. We have announced our acceptance of democracy that acknowledges political pluralism, the peaceful rotation of power and the fact that the nation is the source of all powers. As we see it, political reform includes the termination of the state of emergency, restoring public freedoms, including the right to establish political parties, whatever their tendencies may be, and the freedom of the press, freedom of criticism and thought, freedom of peaceful demonstrations, freedom of assembly, etc. It also includes the dismantling of all exceptional courts and the annulment of all exceptional laws, establishing the independence of the judiciary, enabling the judiciary to fully and truly supervise general elections so as to ensure that they authentically express people's will, removing all obstacles that restrict the functioning of civil society organizations, etc” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood Which may be a load of bollocks, or not, but the ‘idea’ is about as popular as popular as a rattle snake in a lucky dip in Saudi.And then there is the so called ‘restoration of the Ottoman Empire’; Erdogan. I think people flatter the ‘present political Turkish ruling class’ in accusing them of being grandiose nationalists and patriots; and thinking about long term strategic economic goals etc. They are Saudi (and thus US hirelings) filling up while the going is good and will clear out later.
It seems that, of the 70,000 non-IS rebels mentioned in Cameron's dodgy dossier as being on the ground in Syria ready to take on IS, 65,000 share the same ideology and will only want to take IS's place in imposing Islamism on people in Syria; in other they are just members of rival Islamist gangs:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3367662/15-Jihadi-groups-65-000-militants-ready-replace-ISIS-defeated-share-aim-create-Islamic-state-destroy-west.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490Looks like, on Cameron's figures, there will only be about 5000 moderate, ie non-jihadi, rebels in Syria …..
For the sake of balance French patriotism is worse than ISIS ISIS
ISIS are fucking puppies compared to capitalist legitimate states. So lets stop the bull
Our message has always been a plague on both houses…We don't design hierarchies of oppressionBoth patriotism and religion right now have the loudest voices compared with the socialist and the media determines who gets to shout the most. http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_29294710/richmond-donald-trump-supporter-arrested-suspicion-threatening-muslims
And we do not take sides. Workers of all countries untite. Nuttie muslims and nuttier brits and nuttier usa FBI . None are more nutier than the other. ISIS is no more MAD than the moron Camoron. If we lose sight of that we become another bullshit reformist group
alanjjohnstone wrote:Our message has always been a plague on both houses…We don't design hierarchies of oppressionActually, this is not quite what we have said. Certainly we don't take sides in wars, but we have always recognised that political democracy is better than dictatorship (is this designating a hierarchy of oppression?) , as in our 1939 statement opposing the Sond World War:
Quote:The Socialist Party of Great Britain is fully aware of the sufferings of German workers under Nazi rule, and wholeheartedly supports the efforts of workers everywhere to secure democratic rights against the powers of suppression, but the history of the past decades shows the futility of war as a means of safeguarding democracy.In other words, our position has been:political democracy is important to the working class but cannot (or even should not) be defended by taking sides in a war between capitalist states.It is not the same as the ultra-left position, as put forward by L Bird and endorsed earlier by Vin when he said L. Bird was expressing the Party case, that socialists don't take sides in wars because there is no fundamental difference between fascism and political democracy or, today, between an Islamic state and political democracy on the grounds that both are capitalist states.Of course an Islamic State is worse for workers than the limited political democracy that exists in Britain, France, etc (or even than political dictatorships like fascism or stalinism or, for that matter, Baathism). There can be no argument about this and we shouldn't suggest that it's a matter of indifference for workers whether they live under such a state or in a political democracy.Our position is that political democracy is valuable to workers but should not be defended by taking sides in wars and that, in any event, this is not why capitalist states go to war or are going to war in Iraq and Syria today.
ALB wrote:It is not the same as the ultra-left position, as put forward by L Bird and endorsed earlier by Vin when he said L. Bird was expressing the Party case, that socialists don't take sides in wars because there is no fundamental difference between fascism and political democracy or, today, between an Islamic state and political democracy on the grounds that both are capitalist states.Workers dont take sides in wars, LBird was correct. There are no interests justifying the shedding a single drop of working class blood. Still stands for meTories are better than Fascism ???? That the official stand?? Then we should acknowledge that.and Support Corbyn against Farage and other Nazis. Well Labour is better than Tories from where I am standing. i can organise and think better with a home and food in my stomach. But despite the benefits Labour gives the working class in the NE I stand firm and do not take sides. I think it is hypocritical position to support workers of other countries against oppression but oppose workers struggling aginst it here on this islandBy the way the 'ultra left' whatever the hell that means take sides in wars. They attend anti fascist marches unlike the SPGB
The Ultra Left (CWO, ICC, etc.) don't attend anti-fash marches. The Far Left might. If the Ultra left do show, it's only as a 'intervention'.It's not hyopcritical to recognise that here is a lesser evil (recognition does not imply endorsement). It's not hypocritical to hold that political democracy is an essential prerequisite for socialist revolution, and to recognise that its forceful attainment is sometimes necessary.Our 'anti-fascism' and defence of democracy in the UK takes the form of calling for participation in in and a vote for the Socialist Party, on the grounds that any pro-capitalist party must inevitably work against democracy (like Syriza) when faced with the demands of that system.On Syria, I'd suggest first and foremost our position is anything that brings the swiftest end to the fighting and minimises the loss of workers lives, irrespective of the political outcomes; and, further, practical solidarity with refugees, who are workers in struggle with various states.
Young Master Smeet wrote:It's not hyopcritical to recognise that here is a lesser evil (recognition does not imply endorsement). It's not hypocritical to hold that political democracy is an essential prerequisite for socialist revolution, and to recognise that its forceful attainment is sometimes necessary.Fair enough but we should be clear that we prefer Corbyn to Farage but we don't endorse him.Otherwise it is hypocritical
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