Syria: will the West attack?

[Young Master Smeet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYDArl–Qp0Who buys IS's oil? Assad!?!  Bomb their refineries, they just sell crude.  Noticeably, a big source of income is extortion, kidnapping and racketeering: they're just a criminal mob, nothing special, all they had was a good PR dept.

[alanjjohnstone]

Turkey became the first Nato member to shoot down a Russian plane in over half a century.NATO flexes its muscle and rattles the sabres. As i mentioned in a previous post. Turkey unilaterally declared an air buffer zone that intrudes 5 miles inside Syria's legal air space. This may have a bearing. But what if Syria had shot down a French aircraft that is operating without Syria's permission … 

[Young Master Smeet]

Oh, dear:http://sputniknews.com/world/20151125/1030715073/moskva-cruiser-syria.html

Quote:

The Moskva guided missile cruiser outfitted with S-300F Fort anti-air systems took position off the coast of Latakia. Its early warning systems and air defense array will provide adequate cover for the Russian Aerospace Forces elements in Syria,"

https://www.rt.com/news/323379-s400-russia-syria-airbase/

Quote:

Shortly afterwards, the MoD announced three steps to be taken following the attack on the Russian Su-24 bomber, including providing aerial cover by fighter jets for every airstrike, boosting air defense by deploying guided missile cruisers off the Syrian coast near Latakia coast, and suspending all military-to-military contacts with Turkey.The S-400 is Russia's most advanced anti-aircraft defense system. It is as an upgrade of the S-300 Growler family, designed and developed by Almaz Antei. The S-400 is employed to ensure air defense using long- and medium-range missiles that can hit aerial targets at ranges up to 400km. The S-400 is capable of hitting tactical and strategic aircraft as well as ballistic and cruise missiles. The system includes a set of radars, missile launchers and command posts, and is operated solely by the Russian military.

So, when Russia downs it's first Turkish jet…

[alanjjohnstone]

Also Russian aircraft on bombing missions will now be escorted by interceptor jets. "the MoD announced three steps to be taken following the attack on the Russian Su-24 bomber, including providing aerial cover by fighter jets for every airstrike, boosting air defense by deploying guided missile cruisers off the Latakia coast, and suspending all military-to-military contacts with Turkey." Nor has there been any Western condemnation of the shooting at helpless pilots by "moderate" resistance fighters parachuting from the stricken aircraft which is akin to shooting at life-rafts from a sunk ship – a war-crime. Another double standard of which there are, of course, many more we can cite.  It seems Russia was attacking Chechen nationalist units attached to the Turkomen militia who have Turkish government support for being ethnic Turks – or so i determine from reading various posts.   

[ALB]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

Nor has there been any Western condemnation of the shooting at helpless pilots by "moderate" resistance fighters parachuting from the stricken aircraft which is akin to shooting at life-rafts from a sunk ship – a war-crime. Another double standard of which there are, of course, many more we can cite.

And dancing around his body shouting "Allah Akhbar". Very moderate. No wonder most people in Syria are either putting up with the government or getting out of the place.

[alanjjohnstone]

Quote:

No wonder most people in Syria are either putting up with the government or getting out of the place.

We are often accused of never having any real strategies to what capitalism does to us but we do. Socialists will seek refuge and sanctuary in other countries where possible and keep our heads down and play whatever lip-service is required to survive persecution and threats to life and limb. Our advice has always been, in my experience of having conversations with fellow members, live for socialism.We don't seek martyrdom nor have a death-wish such as James Connolly was said to have in making a blood sacrifice for his politics. We saw the futility of that. Perhaps the scenario hasn't arrived yet for us as a Party but we should always have in the back of our minds how we would-  as an organisation – offer support for socialists fleeing to safety. The 1st International despite it limited resources did offer assistance to refugees from the Paris Commune.As i said we have not been faced with the situation but it is not an unlikely possibility that one day we may well be approached for help by fellow socialists in some future situation. I hope we can respond with comradely solidarity when it happens and accept the financial cost it may very well result in.

[ALB]

Breaking News wrote:

France's parliament has voted overwhelmingly to extend airstrikes in Syria, according to the AFP news agency.A prolonged debate had taken place on whether the campaign should be stepped up in the wake of recent terror attacks in Paris.Lawmakers in the National Assembly approved a motion to prolong the operation by 515 votes to four, and 10 people abstained.

I wonder who the 4 were and why.

[Young Master Smeet]

Ah, the roll of Honour:William Dumas (Socialist Party)Philippe Duron (Socialist Party)Jean-Pierre Gorges (Republican)Isabelle Attard (Green)Abstentions: (All Democratic Republican Group, which is a bit like the Lords' cross benchers, and doesn't whip).François AsensiAlain BocquetMarie-George BuffetJean-Jacques CandelierPatrice CarvalhoGaby CharrouxAndré ChassaigneMarc DolezJacqueline FraysseNicolas SansuThey don't appear to have spoke in the debate:http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/cri/2015-2016/20160065.asp#P663465 

[Young Master Smeet]

Apparently the state of emergency means France has derrogated from the Europpean COnvention on Human Rights:http://www.coe.int/en/web/secretary-general/news/-/asset_publisher/EYlBJNjXtA5U/content/france-informs-secretary-general-of-article-15-derogation-of-the-european-convention-on-human-rights?inheritRedirect=false&redirect=http://www.coe.int/fr/web/secretary-general/news%3Fp_p_id%3D101_INSTANCE_EYlBJNjXtA5U%26p_p_lifecycle%3D0%26p_p_state%3Dnormal%26p_p_mode%3Dview%26p_p_col_id%3Dcolumn-4%26p_p_col_count%3D1 

Quote:

There can be no derogation from Article 2 (Right to life), Article 3 (Prohibition of torture and inhumane or degrading treatment or punishment), Article 4 para. 1 (prohibition of slavery), Article 7 (No punishment without law).

[ALB]

Young Master Smeet wrote:

They don't appear to have spoke in the debate:

The Ecologiste Isabelle Attard has explained her vote on her website/blog headed "For an effective anti-terrorist struggle, I will not sign a blank cheque to the government":

Quote:

Je voterai donc contre la poursuite des bombardements en Syrie, dans l’attente d’éléments sérieux démontrant l’avantage de cette solution sur toutes les autres. Ce vote contre ne signifie pas que je défends l’inaction face au  terrorisme. Bien au contraire. Je suis pour une lutte anti-terroriste efficace, pour protéger tous les Français de futurs attentats.

Rough translation:[

Quote:

I will therefore vote against the bombings in Syria while awaiting serious elements demonstrating the advantage of this solution over all others. This vote does not mean that I am defending inaction in the face of terrorism. Quite the opposite. I am for an effective anti-terrorist struggle, to protect all French people from future attacks.

The deputies who abstained were members of "Gauche démocrate et républicaine" (Democratic and Republican Left ) which is composed of members of the French Communist Party, of the Left Party and diverse other leftwingers. That makes sense. I wouldn't have expected them (the equivalent of Corbyn and McDonnell here) to have voted for.

[Young Master Smeet]

Ah, Philippe Duron denies voting against:https://twitter.com/PhilippeDuron/status/669799441814130688

Quote:

Une erreur de manipulation lors du vote à laissé croire que j'avais voté contre la prolongation de l'engagement en Syrie. Il n'en est rien =

Mishandling during the vote left to believe that I voted against the extension of the commitment in Syria. It is not so

[Young Master Smeet]

Ah, and Dumas says the same:http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/politique/assemblees/ces-quatre-deputes-qui-ont-vote-contre-les-frappes-francaises-en-syrie_1739593.htmlStrike from the roll of honour.

[ALB]

Jean-Pierre Gorges will have voted against. According to this, he was the only deputy to have voted against the Iraq war.His reasons for voting against  bombing Syria are not on general anti-war grounds. He's the mayor of Chartres for the opposition conservatives. His reason seems to be that it wouldn't make things any better and would be a waste of money:https://www.facebook.com/jeanpierregorges/posts/928687167217263

Quote:

A quoi bon aller jeter quelques bombes en Syrie ? C’est cher, et cela ne nous protège en rien, bien au contraire, puisque cela diminue l’argent disponible pour le combat intérieur. Et cela provoque les représailles de nos adversaires

Quote:

What's the point of dropping some bombs in Syria? That's expensive and doesn't protect us at all. Quite the opposite because it reduces the money available for the fight at home. And it provokes reprisals from our adversaries.

Mind you, his last point is valid.So, it's down to just 2 against. A bit like the votes in 1914 in the Reichstag on Germany going to war.

[Young Master Smeet]

But, overhere, The Beast stays on the roll:

Quote:

Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab):Is it not essential in any prelude to a war to be sure of our allies and to be sure of the objectives? Is it not a fact that Turkey has been buying oil from ISIL? They used Turkey’s trucks to store it. Turkey has been bombing the Kurds, and the Kurds are fighting ISIL. Turkey shot down a Russian jet, even though Russia wants to fight ISIL. The Prime Minister has the objective of getting rid of Assad. A Russian ally has the opposite objective. What a crazy war—enemies to the right of us, enemies to the left of us. Keep out.

[ALB]

My brother-in-law was against the Iraq war on the grounds that it would mean more refugees and asylum seekers coming to Britain. I've not spoken to him about the Syria war but I imagine he's against it for the same reason. I think that's UKIP's position too, isn't it?

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