Socialism will fail if sex is not used for group cohesion
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moderator2 wrote:I think i have to agree this poster has idiosyncratic views and ways of expressing them that generally does not accord with the general opinion of socialists within the WSM i refer folk to this insightful post on one aspect of his argument. http://class-warfare.blogspot.com/2007/09/i-was-born-facially-disfigured-with.html
Which is all the more reason for socialists to challenge and rebut such idiosyncratic views. Surely, this is the very reason for this sites existence?
Thanks for the link. I had lost it.
Any thoughts on the topic of"socialism will fail if sex is not used for group cohesion" AND "socialism will fail if lookism exists"
Quote:Lookism is a term used to describe discriminatory treatment towards physically unattractive people; mainly in the workplace but also in social settings.[1] While not classified in the same way as racial, cultural, sexual discrimination, "lookism" is widespread and affects how people are perceived as well as affecting their opportunities in terms of relationships, job opportunities, etc.lookism on wikipeida https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookism
This comment is a notion and not a conviction. I could have my mind changed easiliy and I have not thought about this much. This comment is relevant to the thread topic, but probably not to the most recent posts which were discussing use of the word "ugly" or "retard". It is not my personal belief that use of the word "retard" vs "intellectually handicaped" is definitionally related to socialism or or definitionally related to lookism. I suspect at most come statistical or causal relationship between the concepts. personally, I think it's a small thing to ask that I use the word for people they prefer and I do so when It occurs to me or when they ask me to refer to them that way. If any victim of discrimination wants me to use a specefic word to describe the basis for their descrimation then I agree. I give them ownership of the language I use to describe them on the principle that my linguistic convenience is of small importance compared to the linguistic discrimation they've experienced.At the height of the Victorian Age there were 80,000 prostitutes in the streets of London.The Britsh army had an elaborate system to ensure their soldiers got sex from 'non local' prostitutes, probably for security reasons 'local' was avoided.Disabled people(men and women) make use of them as 'sex surrogates' and pay them for their services….. to say such a service is not required in a thoroughly monogamous society is a joke.If you fail to add this 'pleasant/unpleasant' task (which I understand will be voluntary like every other task) in a socialist society will mean socialism will fail in its promise to meet people's needs through peaceful cooperation.
Subhaditya wrote:At the height of the Victorian Age there were 80,000 prostitutes in the streets of London.The British army had an elaborate system to ensure their soldiers got sex from 'non local' prostitutes, probably for security reasons 'local' was avoided.Disabled people(men and women) make use of them as 'sex surrogates' and pay them for their services….. to say such a service is not required in a thoroughly monogamous society is a joke.If you fail to add this 'pleasant/unpleasant' task (which I understand will be voluntary like every other task) in a socialist society will mean socialism will fail in its promise to meet people's needs through peaceful cooperation.SubhadityaWho is suggesting socialism will be a "thoroughly monogamous society" anyway? I suspect it will be a highly variegated society in that respect. Actually, this is already the case today: According to the Ethnographic Atlas, of 1,231 societies from around the world noted, 186 were monogamous; 453 had occasional polygyny; 588 had more frequent polygyny; and 4 had polyandry (Wikiedia) In any case, extadyadic relationships – sex with more than just one partner – is not unheard amongst monogamous couples, By monogamy is usually meant marriage with one partner only but the above article makes an interesting distinction between social monogamy and sexual monogamy. These categories allude to different, albeit overlapping, phenomena: The amount of extramarital sex by men is described as "universal" in 6 cultures, "moderate" in 29 cultures, "occasional" in 6 cultures, and "uncommon" in 10 cultures. The amount of extramarital sex by women is described as "universal" in 6 cultures, "moderate" in 23 cultures, "occasional" in 9 cultures, and "uncommon" in 15 cultures. These findings support the claim that the reported amount of extramarital sex differs across cultures and across genders You refer to disabled man and women making use of sex surrogates. Although some disabled men and women do have long term intimate relationships, I don't see a problem with the practice of sex surrogacy. Just at random, a quick search on Google revealed a link to one such organisation – the TLC Trust – . which has as its mission the goal of finding "responsible sexual services" for disabled men and women http://www.tlc-trust.org.uk/ I can very easily imagine an organisation such as this continuing to operate and do useful work in socialist society catering for the sexual needs of men and woman who perhaps might find it difficult to do this on their own and need someone to advocate on their behalf in a caring and respectful manner. The big difference of course is that these sexual services like all human labour will be provided on a completely free and voluntary basis which is the logical corollary of the free access to goods and services that will be hallmark of a socialist society
Subhaditya wrote:At the height of the Victorian Age there were 80,000 prostitutes in the streets of London.The Britsh army had an elaborate system to ensure their soldiers got sex from 'non local' prostitutes, probably for security reasons 'local' was avoided.Disabled people(men and women) make use of them as 'sex surrogates' and pay them for their services….. to say such a service is not required in a thoroughly monogamous society is a joke.If you fail to add this 'pleasant/unpleasant' task (which I understand will be voluntary like every other task) in a socialist society will mean socialism will fail in its promise to meet people's needs through peaceful cooperation.I thibk that 80,000 prostitutes is nothing compared with the ring of child prostitution that exists around the world. Doesn't;it bother you to know that children are being used as prostitute ? Those are sexual slaves, and many of those children are already suffering from venereal diseases, and probably they will die at a very young age. That ring of prostitution is also tied to drug traffic, and some are also used to transport drugs Personally, I do not care if the socialist society is going to be monogamous, or polygamy, what is really worrying me is this society based on profits who is using children as prostitutes, and a bunch of perverts are having sex with minors, and are destroying their personal life. Those are the social issues that socialists must worry aboutThere is a big ring of women who have been forced into prostitution, only the rings from the Major Antilles is bigger than the 80 000 that you have mentioned, and those women are distributed thru different countries, and the most affected one are women because there is male prostitution too
mcolome1 wrote:Subhaditya wrote:At the height of the Victorian Age there were 80,000 prostitutes in the streets of London.The Britsh army had an elaborate system to ensure their soldiers got sex from 'non local' prostitutes, probably for security reasons 'local' was avoided.Disabled people(men and women) make use of them as 'sex surrogates' and pay them for their services….. to say such a service is not required in a thoroughly monogamous society is a joke.If you fail to add this 'pleasant/unpleasant' task (which I understand will be voluntary like every other task) in a socialist society will mean socialism will fail in its promise to meet people's needs through peaceful cooperation.I thibk that 80,000 prostitutes is nothing compared with the ring of child prostitution that exists around the world. Doesn't;it bother you to know that children are being used as prostitute ? Those are sexual slaves, and many of those children are already suffering from venereal diseases, and probably they will die at a very young age. That ring of prostitution is also tied to drug traffic, and some are also used to transport drugs Personally, I do not care if the socialist society is going to be monogamous, or polygamy, what is really worrying me is this society based on profits who is using children as prostitutes, and a bunch of perverts are having sex with minors, and are destroying their personal life. Those are the social issues that socialists must worry aboutThere is a big ring of women who have been forced into prostitution, only the rings from the Major Antilles is bigger than the 80 000 that you have mentioned, and those women are distributed thru different countries, and the most affected one are women because there is male prostitution too
You are right on the money there Comrade. The commodity based "society" that the upholders of Capitalism laughingly describe as "freedom" casually ignores that fact that slavery and especially sexual slavery still exists and thrives in most parts of the world.The idea of the "happy hooker" who chooses the so called sex industry as part of a life style choice. which Subhaditya appears to go along with, is a propaganda myth created for those making millions out of the misery of men, women and as you so rightly point out many children. A recent survey in the Uk by the charity Barnardos reported that of female prostitutes they surveyed over 70% began working in the sex industry as children.The fact that capitalism reduces everything to a commodity that can be bought or sold, leads to a situation where children are traffiked and forced into being sex slaves and creates a mind set where those abusing them think that it is ok to do so. The scandals in Rochdale and Rotherham, that hit the headlines are only the tip of a very large ice berg.I'd rather live in a Socialist society with the problem of some people being sexual frustrated, than a capitalist society with millions being sexual exploited.
Tim Kilgallon wrote:mcolome1 wrote:Subhaditya wrote:At the height of the Victorian Age there were 80,000 prostitutes in the streets of London.The Britsh army had an elaborate system to ensure their soldiers got sex from 'non local' prostitutes, probably for security reasons 'local' was avoided.Disabled people(men and women) make use of them as 'sex surrogates' and pay them for their services….. to say such a service is not required in a thoroughly monogamous society is a joke.If you fail to add this 'pleasant/unpleasant' task (which I understand will be voluntary like every other task) in a socialist society will mean socialism will fail in its promise to meet people's needs through peaceful cooperation.I thibk that 80,000 prostitutes is nothing compared with the ring of child prostitution that exists around the world. Doesn't;it bother you to know that children are being used as prostitute ? Those are sexual slaves, and many of those children are already suffering from venereal diseases, and probably they will die at a very young age. That ring of prostitution is also tied to drug traffic, and some are also used to transport drugs Personally, I do not care if the socialist society is going to be monogamous, or polygamy, what is really worrying me is this society based on profits who is using children as prostitutes, and a bunch of perverts are having sex with minors, and are destroying their personal life. Those are the social issues that socialists must worry aboutThere is a big ring of women who have been forced into prostitution, only the rings from the Major Antilles is bigger than the 80 000 that you have mentioned, and those women are distributed thru different countries, and the most affected one are women because there is male prostitution too
You are right on the money there Comrade. The commodity based "society" that the upholders of Capitalism laughingly describe as "freedom" casually ignores that fact that slavery and especially sexual slavery still exists and thrives in most parts of the world.The idea of the "happy hooker" who chooses the so called sex industry as part of a life style choice. which Subhaditya appears to go along with, is a propaganda myth created for those making millions out of the misery of men, women and as you so rightly point out many children. A recent survey in the Uk by the charity Barnardos reported that of female prostitutes they surveyed over 70% began working in the sex industry as children.The fact that capitalism reduces everything to a commodity that can be bought or sold, leads to a situation where children are traffiked and forced into being sex slaves and creates a mind set where those abusing them think that it is ok to do so. The scandals in Rochdale and Rotherham, that hit the headlines are only the tip of a very large ice berg.I'd rather live in a Socialist society with the problem of some people being sexual frustrated, than a capitalist society with millions being sexual exploited.
@TimKilgallon,So how exactly do socialist deal with sex after the revolution? The socialist revolution doesn't come with a magic, "make everyone think the same about sex as me" genie that solves these problems. Or does it? Here's my ideas for how sex might be handled after the socialist revolution. I imagine after the socialist revolution that everyone will need to advertise their abilities to contribute and their needs and they might use postcards to do it. Think socialist after the revolution will still use postcards to exchange and share ideas, so that seemed a safe design principle. Then I made a mockup with some filler comment of a woman writing a postcard in a world after the socialist revolution and in the story someone asks here about sex and she replies her thoughts about it. this postcard story is set in the future after the socialist revolution, but could also be set in the time after the revolution where people are still learning to be socialist and how to practice socialistm. Here's the link to check it out if you're curious.https://docs.google.com/document/d/12N92wl74vQathQT1hJmNkJsl_DsKrdU7XrO_O66ZH8o/edit#heading=h.s1mnxj5zcxdk
Subhaditya wrote:At the height of the Victorian Age there were 80,000 prostitutes in the streets of London.The Britsh army had an elaborate system to ensure their soldiers got sex from 'non local' prostitutes, probably for security reasons 'local' was avoided.Disabled people(men and women) make use of them as 'sex surrogates' and pay them for their services….. to say such a service is not required in a thoroughly monogamous society is a joke.If you fail to add this 'pleasant/unpleasant' task (which I understand will be voluntary like every other task) in a socialist society will mean socialism will fail in its promise to meet people's needs through peaceful cooperation.@SubhadityaI agree completely. I even created a fictional postcard from a fictional future socialist world society as an example of how I think socialism would meet the peoples needs through peacefull cooperation. Here's how I envision our socialist future operating. . . https://docs.google.com/document/d/12N92wl74vQathQT1hJmNkJsl_DsKrdU7XrO_O66ZH8o/edit#heading=h.s1mnxj5zcxdk Check it out if you want and let me know if you agree that's how socialist would do it.
@Robbo203,You wrote. . .
robbo203 wrote:I can very easily imagine an organisation such as this continuing to operate and do useful work in socialist society catering for the sexual needs of men and woman who perhaps might find it difficult to do this on their own and need someone to advocate on their behalf in a caring and respectful manner. The big difference of course is that these sexual services like all human labour will be provided on a completely free and voluntary basis which is the logical corollary of the free access to goods and services that will be hallmark of a socialist societyI don't think we need an "organization" and I think any organizations in a post socialist revolution society need to be considered with skepticism. How do we ensure the organization isn't extracting surplus value from the workers? Maybe that's the nature of organizations? If the "organization" you descibe did exist after the socialist revolution, then how would socialist leaders ensure the suruplus value extracted from any free assoication and exchange wasn't used by the organization in ways not of benefit to the people? Even if we had the power and authority to stop these organizations in a socialist world, We'd still need to monitor and endorse or veto almost every voluntary free exchange offer between people and that would take a lot of time for someone or some "organization".
Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:@Robbo203,You wrote. . .robbo203 wrote:I can very easily imagine an organisation such as this continuing to operate and do useful work in socialist society catering for the sexual needs of men and woman who perhaps might find it difficult to do this on their own and need someone to advocate on their behalf in a caring and respectful manner. The big difference of course is that these sexual services like all human labour will be provided on a completely free and voluntary basis which is the logical corollary of the free access to goods and services that will be hallmark of a socialist societyI don't think we need an "organization" and I think any organizations in a post socialist revolution society need to be considered with skepticism. How do we ensure the organization isn't extracting surplus value from the workers? Maybe that's the nature of organizations? If the "organization" you descibe did exist after the socialist revolution, then how would socialist leaders ensure the suruplus value extracted from any free assoication and exchange wasn't used by the organization in ways not of benefit to the people? Even if we had the power and authority to stop these organizations in a socialist world, We'd still need to monitor and endorse or veto almost every voluntary free exchange offer between people and that would take a lot of time for someone or some "organization".
You seem to understnad the principles of post cards fairly well, however it is fairly clear your struggling a little with the ideas of the Socialist Party (exchnge, surplus value, leaders, power, etc. not really compatible with Socialsim)
Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:mcolome1 wrote:Subhaditya wrote:At the height of the Victorian Age there were 80,000 prostitutes in the streets of London.The Britsh army had an elaborate system to ensure their soldiers got sex from 'non local' prostitutes, probably for security reasons 'local' was avoided.Disabled people(men and women) make use of them as 'sex surrogates' and pay them for their services….. to say such a service is not required in a thoroughly monogamous society is a joke.If you fail to add this 'pleasant/unpleasant' task (which I understand will be voluntary like every other task) in a socialist society will mean socialism will fail in its promise to meet people's needs through peaceful cooperation.I think that 80,000 prostitutes is nothing compared with the ring of child prostitution that exists around the world. Doesn't;it bother you to know that children are being used as prostitute ? Those are sexual slaves, and many of those children are already suffering from venereal diseases, and probably they will die at a very young age. That ring of prostitution is also tied to drug traffic, and some are also used to transport drugs Personally, I do not care if the socialist society is going to be monogamous, or polygamy, what is really worrying me is this society based on profits who is using children as prostitutes, and a bunch of perverts are having sex with minors, and are destroying their personal life. Those are the social issues that socialists must worry aboutThere is a big ring of women who have been forced into prostitution, only the rings from the Major Antilles is bigger than the 80 000 that you have mentioned, and those women are distributed thru different countries, and the most affected one are women because there is male prostitution too
You are right on the money there Comrade. The commodity based "society" that the upholders of Capitalism laughingly describe as "freedom" casually ignores that fact that slavery and especially sexual slavery still exists and thrives in most parts of the world.The idea of the "happy hooker" who chooses the so called sex industry as part of a life style choice. which Subhaditya appears to go along with, is a propaganda myth created for those making millions out of the misery of men, women and as you so rightly point out many children. A recent survey in the Uk by the charity Barnardos reported that of female prostitutes they surveyed over 70% began working in the sex industry as children.The fact that capitalism reduces everything to a commodity that can be bought or sold, leads to a situation where children are traffiked and forced into being sex slaves and creates a mind set where those abusing them think that it is ok to do so. The scandals in Rochdale and Rotherham, that hit the headlines are only the tip of a very large ice berg.I'd rather live in a Socialist society with the problem of some people being sexual frustrated, than a capitalist society with millions being sexual exploited.
@TimKilgallon,So how exactly do socialist deal with sex after the revolution? The socialist revolution doesn't come with a magic, "make everyone think the same about sex as me" genie that solves these problems. Or does it? Here's my ideas for how sex might be handled after the socialist revolution. I imagine after the socialist revolution that everyone will need to advertise their abilities to contribute and their needs and they might use postcards to do it. Think socialist after the revolution will still use postcards to exchange and share ideas, so that seemed a safe design principle. Then I made a mockup with some filler comment of a woman writing a postcard in a world after the socialist revolution and in the story someone asks here about sex and she replies her thoughts about it. this postcard story is set in the future after the socialist revolution, but could also be set in the time after the revolution where people are still learning to be socialist and how to practice socialistm. Here's the link to check it out if you're curious.https://docs.google.com/document/d/12N92wl74vQathQT1hJmNkJsl_DsKrdU7XrO_O66ZH8o/edit#heading=h.s1mnxj5zcxdk
Marx and Engels spent more than 30 years working out on the conception of socialism, and they dedicated their whole life to the cause of the working class, and they never dared to create a blueprint of the socialist society, and now you come with a postcard to lay it out, when you do not even know what the capitalist society really is. The above topic is the exploitation and sex child slavery that is spreading around the world which is a normal process of a society based on the law of buying and selling, a society that you do not understand, and you jumped over that situation with your management obsession, like the problems of human beings can be resolved from an officein the same society that you are living child slavery is an epidemic, and the children that reached the border of the south running away from those social problems, many peoples wanted them to be killed in order to save money, which means that money is more important than the life of the human beings.
Tim Kilgallon wrote:Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:@Robbo203,You wrote. . .robbo203 wrote:I can very easily imagine an organisation such as this continuing to operate and do useful work in socialist society catering for the sexual needs of men and woman who perhaps might find it difficult to do this on their own and need someone to advocate on their behalf in a caring and respectful manner. The big difference of course is that these sexual services like all human labour will be provided on a completely free and voluntary basis which is the logical corollary of the free access to goods and services that will be hallmark of a socialist societyI don't think we need an "organization" and I think any organizations in a post socialist revolution society need to be considered with skepticism. How do we ensure the organization isn't extracting surplus value from the workers? Maybe that's the nature of organizations? If the "organization" you descibe did exist after the socialist revolution, then how would socialist leaders ensure the suruplus value extracted from any free assoication and exchange wasn't used by the organization in ways not of benefit to the people? Even if we had the power and authority to stop these organizations in a socialist world, We'd still need to monitor and endorse or veto almost every voluntary free exchange offer between people and that would take a lot of time for someone or some "organization".
You seem to understnad the principles of post cards fairly well, however it is fairly clear your struggling a little with the ideas of the Socialist Party (exchnge, surplus value, leaders, power, etc. not really compatible with Socialsim)
He does not get it, and he wants to give us advices about socialism., ignorance is the mother of the imprudence. We have explained to him thousands of times that socialism is going to be a society based on the common possession of the means of production, without leaders, without state, without the law of buying and selling, without surplus value,and free access, and he continues hammering the same things that he has mistakenly learned. How can you be a carpenter when you have not received the proper training, or the proper technical education ? The WSM is an university of socialism and we have spent 100 years trying to spread the correct conception of socialism, and in order to understand it, we must study it properly, therefore, we must open the doors and windows of our minds to understand the socialist case , it does not penetrate thru Osmosis
Tim Kilgallon wrote:mcolome1 wrote:Subhaditya wrote:At the height of the Victorian Age there were 80,000 prostitutes in the streets of London.The Britsh army had an elaborate system to ensure their soldiers got sex from 'non local' prostitutes, probably for security reasons 'local' was avoided.Disabled people(men and women) make use of them as 'sex surrogates' and pay them for their services….. to say such a service is not required in a thoroughly monogamous society is a joke.If you fail to add this 'pleasant/unpleasant' task (which I understand will be voluntary like every other task) in a socialist society will mean socialism will fail in its promise to meet people's needs through peaceful cooperation.I thibk that 80,000 prostitutes is nothing compared with the ring of child prostitution that exists around the world. Doesn't;it bother you to know that children are being used as prostitute ? Those are sexual slaves, and many of those children are already suffering from venereal diseases, and probably they will die at a very young age. That ring of prostitution is also tied to drug traffic, and some are also used to transport drugs Personally, I do not care if the socialist society is going to be monogamous, or polygamy, what is really worrying me is this society based on profits who is using children as prostitutes, and a bunch of perverts are having sex with minors, and are destroying their personal life. Those are the social issues that socialists must worry aboutThere is a big ring of women who have been forced into prostitution, only the rings from the Major Antilles is bigger than the 80 000 that you have mentioned, and those women are distributed thru different countries, and the most affected one are women because there is male prostitution too
You are right on the money there Comrade. The commodity based "society" that the upholders of Capitalism laughingly describe as "freedom" casually ignores that fact that slavery and especially sexual slavery still exists and thrives in most parts of the world.The idea of the "happy hooker" who chooses the so called sex industry as part of a life style choice. which Subhaditya appears to go along with, is a propaganda myth created for those making millions out of the misery of men, women and as you so rightly point out many children. A recent survey in the Uk by the charity Barnardos reported that of female prostitutes they surveyed over 70% began working in the sex industry as children.The fact that capitalism reduces everything to a commodity that can be bought or sold, leads to a situation where children are traffiked and forced into being sex slaves and creates a mind set where those abusing them think that it is ok to do so. The scandals in Rochdale and Rotherham, that hit the headlines are only the tip of a very large ice berg.I'd rather live in a Socialist society with the problem of some people being sexual frustrated, than a capitalist society with millions being sexual exploited.
Lol you two…. both of you guys have some sort of paranoid condition when it comes to the use of the word 'sex' …. did you two even read the word 'voluntary' in my post… here is the link to the meaning of the word voluntary … http://www.dictionary.com/browse/voluntaryMcolome1 also sees a bourgeoisie conspiracy everywhere.I dont think either of you read the book 'Sex At Dawn' I mentioned or checked the article by James W. Prescott 'linking lack of physical pleasure with violence'. I am not even sure you two know what I am talking about… you two keep getting drawn to issues of coercion, yet cannot see a connection between sexual frustration and coercion… In a world where it is 'natural' for women to fight over men and the 'superior woman' will get to have the man and vice versa there is implicit acceptance of inequality where the 'superior' being has the right to a better life than his inferiors, well then stop cribbing about your inferior existence. Prove your superiority and you will get to have a better life than your inferiors if not well then be content with your inferior existence. You want competition or cooperation… do you want one to forcefully prove his/her superioirity to the other and hence deny the other the thing they are competing over(sexual partner in this case) and keep it all to themselves because face it both cant have it in a sexually monogamous or polygamous place. Do you want every person to prove their superiority to their competitors as the more superior you are the better life you will deserve to have.Well all I can say is I can prove my superiority through violent means as well. Machiavellian deception comes in handy too. It is brutal but effective and maybe the only way in a world of scarcity. Socialist dont think socialism will work in a world of scarcity….Yet Mcolome1 cannot connect sexual frustration with scarcity and the pain it causes and its connection to violence, infliction of pain on one self and others…. and the environment of domination and submission it promotes…In an environment of scarcity there always will be a dominant master class who corner the scarce resources and a slave class who must be 'content' to live in deprivation if they wish to 'survive'.And that is why I am against artificially creating an environment of scarcity.p.s. Dr. Susan Block has sex with many men and women and is also married and she makes extra money by appearing in a TV show promoting pleasure seeking behavior and she is 60 years old, does she qualify as 'happy hooker' or she something else Im not sure maybe Tim can clarify.Also I know of a person who joined porn as she had doubts about her attractiveness when she was in school… so inspite of being a good student she chose to join porn…I wish there were more women in this forum I could talk to half the guys here only see rape when I mention the word promiscuity… as if peaceful promiscuity is impossible.
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