Socialism at your fingertips

November 2024 Forums General discussion Socialism at your fingertips

Viewing 7 posts - 31 through 37 (of 37 total)
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  • #87896
    Gog_
    Participant

    I didn’t say that it was.

    #87897
    DJP
    Participant
    Gog_ wrote:
    I didn’t say that it was.

    Glad to know it.Though of course the movement for socialism does arise out of the contradictory conditions of capitalism. It’s just the ‘automatically arising out of decreasing conditions’ bit I don’t agree with.

    #87898
    Brian
    Participant
    DJP wrote:
    Gog_ wrote:
    I didn’t say that it was.

    Glad to know it.Though of course the movement for socialism does arise out of the contradictory conditions of capitalism. It’s just the ‘automatically arising out of decreasing conditions’ bit I don’t agree with.

    And if not why not?   Are not ‘the contradictionary conditions’ and ‘decreasing conditions’ one and the same thing?  An explanation would be appreciated.

    #87899
    DJP
    Participant
    Brian wrote:
    And if not why not?   Are not ‘the contradictionary conditions’ and ‘decreasing conditions’ one and the same thing?  An explanation would be appreciated.

    Decreasing means a lessening in size, strength or quantity.I was using the word ‘contradictory’ in the dialectical sense, in the sense that capitalism is composed of various opposing tendencies, the central relation being that between wage labour and capital .For example: Competition between capitalists leads them to invest more and more in machinery and less and less in workers (labour-power) but as labour power is the source of profit this leads to a fall in the rate of profit. But there are also other factors at play which counter this tendancy, not least the devaluation of capital which occurs in a crises.So whether the economic cycle is on the up or the down the basic contradiction, and the need for socialism, is the same.So decreasing means down, the interplay of factors that make a ‘contradiction’ can go either way.Fairly basic stuff?

    #87900
    Brian
    Participant

    So there’s nothing “automatic” on how the contradictions and decreasing conditions play out.  In fact if they were automatic it infers the class struggle is a purely mechanistic reaction of the inherent contradictions.  Damn and there’s me thinking I had it all worked out and that the dialectic is not much use in illustrating how to grow some vegetables for free.  LolBut seriously, lets not forget such projects like Incredible Edible could be a reaction against the decreasing conditions of capitalism and may in the long term have some positive effects in relation to grasping the whole picture with a corresponding change in the mindset.

    #87901
    ALB
    Keymaster
    ALB wrote:
    I’m due to speak at a Zeitgeist event in Cardiff on Sunday where one of the other speakers is from the Eat for Free Project which seems to be into this sort of thing. I’ll report back on what he says.

    The speaker from Eat for Free Project didn’t turn up, but growing your own food was one of the recommendations made by a ZM lecturer, Vivak Shori, for surviving in the coming period of severe deflation with falling prices, massive unemployment and shortages that he predicted would be coming within the next 2-5 years due to oil supplies running out with no effective substitute in sight and to the debt bubble bursting. A rather more alarming reason for growing your own food. I challenged him to a bet that his predicted deflation wouldn’t happen (to be called in in 2017).

    #87902
    DJP
    Participant

     

    ALB wrote:
     I challenged him to a bet that his predicted deflation wouldn’t happen (to be called in in 2017).

    Wasn’t there also prediction in Zeitgeist Addendum that the US would have defaulted on its national debt by now? Will look it up….

Viewing 7 posts - 31 through 37 (of 37 total)
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