Socialism at your fingertips

[ALB]

I’m due to speak at a Zeitgeist event in Cardiff on Sunday where one of the other speakers is from the Eat for Free Project which seems to be into this sort of thing. I’ll report back on what he says. Apart from putting the case for world socialism I’ll be concentrating my criticism of course on the currency crank from Positive Money.

[Socialist Party Head Office]

A comrade who actually lives in Todmorden but who is not subscribed to this forum has asked for this contribution to be posted here:With reference to Eat for Free and the Todmorden Incredible Edible, we have one of the free access food tubs in Todmorden so I thought I might make a few comments.The Incredible Edible people are fairly on the ball, much more so than Brian in the “Socialism at Your Fingertips” posting. No one here claims (or should claim) anything more than that the project can further local sustainability in food production. Certainly there have been no “amazing results” (excepting propaganda coups such as the recent visit of Bonnie Prince Bigears) and it definitely does not involve the whole community. Mostly it’s ‘middle class’ in-comers and vegetarian types, who are responsible for the project. While some of the better off locals are involved at a lower level, the substantial Asian origin minority and the white estate dwellers are largely indifferent, as indeed one might expect. Doubtless they have more important worries, such as working out how to keep head above water. So far as “community well-being” is concerned the results are nil. Todmorden demonstrates the whole gamut of modern anti-social behaviour engendered by late period capitalism, from lippy kids to pedo-pervs and nazis, and probably more than most places due to its cotton based economy being smashed long ago.Let’s be very clear: There are absolutely no implications for socialism, no “lessons” to be learnt. Providing a bit (and it is a very minor bit – try to live on it and you’ll be Musselmanned in no time) of fruit and veg free cannot lead to a free society, even incrementally with other, more half-arsed, schemes such as the LETS. It’s not the “either/or thing” of Robbo but a “something else entirely thing”. It’s irrelevant (I should know – I do it!). After all, what have these glorified allotments to do with the means of production? Sweet fuck all. They’re not even peripheral. Neither is it some sort of ‘socialism in miniature’, a guide to human behaviour under “free access”. Such an attitude is the purest utopianism.

[DJP]

 This quote from Ken Knabb’s ‘Joy of Revolution’ sums up the situation quite nicely. Though, of course the rest of Knabb’s book is not beyond criticism.http://bopsecrets.org/PS/joyrev2.htm#Reforms

Quote:

[..] Block clubs, co-ops, switchboards, study groups, alternative schools, free health clinics, community theaters, neighborhood newspapers, public-access radio and television stations and many other kinds of alternative institutions are worthwhile for their own sake, and if they are sufficiently participatory they may lead to broader movements. Even if they don’t last very long, they provide a temporary terrain for radical experimentation.But always within limits. Capitalism was able to develop gradually within feudal society, so that by the time the capitalist revolution cast off the last vestiges of feudalism, most of the mechanisms of the new bourgeois order were already firmly in place. An anticapitalist revolution, in contrast, cannot really build its new society “within the shell of the old.” Capitalism is far more flexible and all-pervading than was feudalism, and tends to coopt any oppositional organization.Nineteenth-century radical theorists could still see enough surviving remnants of traditional communal forms to suppose that, once the overarching exploitive structure was eliminated, they might be revived and expanded to form the foundation of a new society. But the global penetration of spectacular capitalism in the present century has destroyed virtually all forms of popular control and direct human interaction. Even the more modern efforts of the sixties counterculture have long been integrated into the system. Co-ops, crafts, organic farming and other marginal enterprises may produce better quality goods under better working conditions, but those goods still have to function as commodities on the market. The few successful ventures tend to evolve into ordinary businesses, with the founding members gradually assuming an ownership or managerial role over the newer workers and dealing with all sorts of routine commercial and bureaucratic matters that have nothing to do with “preparing the ground for a new society.”[…]Meanwhile, until a revolutionary situation enables us to be truly constructive, the best we can do is be creatively negative — concentrating on critical clarification, leaving people to pursue whatever positive projects may appeal to them but without the illusion that a new society is being “built” by the gradual accumulation of such projects.[…]The best projects are those that are worthwhile for their own sake while simultaneously containing an implicit challenge to some fundamental aspect of the system; projects that enable people to participate in significant issues according to their own degree of interest, while tending to open the way to more radical possibilities.

[Anonymous]

Socialist Party Head Office wrote:

Todmorden demonstrates the whole gamut of modern anti-social behaviour engendered by late period capitalism, from lippy kids to pedo-pervs and nazis, and probably more than most places due to its cotton based economy being smashed long ago.After all, what have these glorified allotments to do with the means of production? Sweet fuck all. They’re not even peripheral. Neither is it some sort of ‘socialism in miniature’, a guide to human behaviour under “free access”. Such an attitude is the purest utopianism.

Love your literary style; you really should join this forum…….  

[Gog_]

DJP, you state:The best projects are those that are worthwhile for their own sake while simultaneously containing an implicit challenge to some fundamental aspect of the system; projects that enable people to participate in significant issues according to their own degree of interest, while tending to open the way to more radical possibilities. Originally, I set out my idea as a different way of introducing different people to socialism through practical demonstration.”The best projects are those that are worthwhile for their own sake”I think I shall risk it and say that growing your own food on whatever level is intrinsically a good thing for multiple reasons.”…while simultaneously containing an implicit challenge to some fundamental aspect of the system…”I originally stated that one of the guiding principles would be to challenge the local monopoly of businesses selling people to buy food: eventually, if succesfull enough severely impacting the profitability of such a business. The people doing so would be challenging the fundamental assumption within capitalism that so many people still labour under that, “you have to work, to earn money to pay for food”.”…projects that enable people to participate in significant issues according to their own degree of interest…”I originally stated that the idea would look to bring as much people as possible to the “group” in many different areas, so as to foster the working understanding that people can take from the free store due to their input of effort on whatever scale (ultimately) and in whichever way: logistics, growing, tidying, cleaning, technology, teaching etc: enabling people to “participate in the significant issue”of food production in the hands of people, “according to their own degree of interedst”.”…while tending to open the way to more radical possibilities.”I originally stated that one of the idea’s principles would be to produce a practical demonstration of socialism; to show to people that are not familiar or historically comfortable with associating with the language and body of socialism as a result of adopted political/social mistruths. Some people may just enjoy the company and the outdoors, others may find it a valuable tool in experimenting with ideas, others still may find it an excellent alternative to buying their food, others still may benefit from being homeless and being able to eat for free, others again that are perfectly rich may come to some kind of “wonderful” assertion that socialism offers when they see some practical demonstration of the values, mechanics and organisation that socialism could hold after capitalism. However, others may not.Some people learn, think and foster understandings better through reading, others through listening and others again through practical experience.What I have posed is not some kind of mini-socialism-some kind of modern-middle class escapism but a different method of encouraging people to engage with socialism; in discussion; engaging with varied people; putting their otherwise bought and paid for labour to the task of something better than just “volunteering”. I am fully aware that such an initiative could not bring down capitalism and I have never said that. What I have said is that it may act as a catalyst for further “radical possibilities” in people that perhaps otherwise may have been wholely turned off from the idea of “socialism”.

[Brian]

Socialist Party Head Office wrote:

A comrade who actually lives in Todmorden but who is not subscribed to this forum has asked for this contribution to be posted here:With reference to Eat for Free and the Todmorden Incredible Edible, we have one of the free access food tubs in Todmorden so I thought I might make a few comments.The Incredible Edible people are fairly on the ball, much more so than Brian in the “Socialism at Your Fingertips” posting. No one here claims (or should claim) anything more than that the project can further local sustainability in food production. Certainly there have been no “amazing results” (excepting propaganda coups such as the recent visit of Bonnie Prince Bigears) and it definitely does not involve the whole community. Mostly it’s ‘middle class’ in-comers and vegetarian types, who are responsible for the project. While some of the better off locals are involved at a lower level, the substantial Asian origin minority and the white estate dwellers are largely indifferent, as indeed one might expect. Doubtless they have more important worries, such as working out how to keep head above water. So far as “community well-being” is concerned the results are nil. Todmorden demonstrates the whole gamut of modern anti-social behaviour engendered by late period capitalism, from lippy kids to pedo-pervs and nazis, and probably more than most places due to its cotton based economy being smashed long ago.Let’s be very clear: There are absolutely no implications for socialism, no “lessons” to be learnt. Providing a bit (and it is a very minor bit – try to live on it and you’ll be Musselmanned in no time) of fruit and veg free cannot lead to a free society, even incrementally with other, more half-arsed, schemes such as the LETS. It’s not the “either/or thing” of Robbo but a “something else entirely thing”. It’s irrelevant (I should know – I do it!). After all, what have these glorified allotments to do with the means of production? Sweet fuck all. They’re not even peripheral. Neither is it some sort of ‘socialism in miniature’, a guide to human behaviour under “free access”. Such an attitude is the purest utopianism.

Hmm.  It appears you attributing claims to me which I never made.  Indeed I’ve kept an open mind on the project and am well aware that embellishments and exaggerations are par for the course with your contribution being no exception.   Nevertheless, when I eventually get round to making a visit to Todmorden your criticisms will be noted along with the rather oblique positive remarks which somewhat confirm my suspicions that although the project is working towards involving the WHOLE community they still have some way to go in that respect.However, sniggering and complaining from the sidelines with mostly negative comments is not in my opinion applying the scientific method to a project which is worth investigating for its attempt at community integration, coordination and cooperation.  Surely – at the end of the day – that is what socialism is all about?So please get on here so we can all establish what can be gained from such projects.  I would hate to think that yet again the party have thrown out the baby with the bath water! 

[robbo203]

Socialist Party Head Office wrote:

A comrade who actually lives in Todmorden but who is not subscribed to this forum has asked for this contribution to be posted here:Let’s be very clear: There are absolutely no implications for socialism, no “lessons” to be learnt. Providing a bit (and it is a very minor bit – try to live on it and you’ll be Musselmanned in no time) of fruit and veg free cannot lead to a free society, even incrementally with other, more half-arsed, schemes such as the LETS. It’s not the “either/or thing” of Robbo but a “something else entirely thing”. It’s irrelevant (I should know – I do it!). After all, what have these glorified allotments to do with the means of production? Sweet fuck all. They’re not even peripheral. Neither is it some sort of ‘socialism in miniature’, a guide to human behaviour under “free access”. Such an attitude is the purest utopianism.

 Apart from piously announcing in ex cathedra fashion that there are “absolutely”  no implications for socialism, no lessons to be learnt,  what  actual evidence does this comrade present to back up his or her sweeping (and not a little arrogant, if I might say so) generalisation?   Its irrelevant because “I should know  -I do it”.  Oh right,  yeah  – very convincing! Why “do it” in that case?  Now theres a contradiction and a half. Obviously some benefit was perceived in doing it It strikes me if  you are determined to set your mind against something then nothing will dissuade you from that point of view. And note the gross caricature that no doubt helps to sustain this comrade in his or her oh-so-comfortable and  dogmatically smug  armchair  conviction that  ” Providing a bit of fruit and veg free cannot lead to a free society”.  Who said it could, eh?  But does that mean it could not help in some way  to do so?  Of course not. Every bit helps. FFS,  the SPGB freely and copiously cites real-life cases of people freely collaborating  outside of capitalist cash nexus as direct counter evidence  of claims that socialism is against our “human nature”. Yet here we have this comrade pooh poohing such evidence as having “absolutely no implications for socialism”.  Really?  It would be laughable were it not so tragically ironic Maybe instances of  practical non-alienated collaboration under capitalism don’t carry much weight with comrade in question who, in world-weary fashion, has tried it all and knows it all but one thing you should never ever do is generalise from your own individual experience.   What does not work for you might work for someone else and conversely  what does not work for someone else might very well work for you. A diversity of overlapping approaches and styles is much more likely to capture a larger number of  hearts and minds than just one single approach monotonously and repetitiously  delivered.I don’t know much about the “Todmorden Incredible Edible” project  – I don’t even know where friggin Todmodern is as I live in faraway sunny recession-hit Spain   – but maybe, just maybe, some  of those involved ,even if they are only a small minority in the community  – might be rendered just a little more receptive to socialist ideas as a result.  How would you know if you don’t approach them from that point of view sympathetically?  If you are determined outright to be hostile  to what they are doing then of course you are going to get a negative response. They are going to see you as a political version of the Jehovah Witnesses and quite likely your interactions with them are going to drive them even further away from socialism. But then – hey! – nothing beats the pleasure of being objectively politically soundFor all my past  criticisms of SPGB I have never ever questioned the need to carry on presenting the party case in the way the party has always done – through its literature , its meeting,  its audio visual material and so on . All that is absolutely essential but it is evidently not enough, is it.?   I  mean, seriously  – as so called “scientific” socialists  you would have thought this would have been more than apparent by now.  When is the penny going to drop that the simplistic old fashioned ways of thinking and doing things are just  not  going to work. and show absolutely no signs of ever working The Party  is half the size it was when I  first joined and is still steadily declining  by all accounts. Oblivion is theoretically  quite on the cards and still we have members displaying advanced signs of  the Titanic syndrome – lashing out at any signs of fresh thinking. Lets all gather around the piano, comrades, and sing the red flag rather than “god save the queen” as we slowly sink below the waves but, for gods sake, dont even think about organising the liferafts!!!. Don’t think outside the black box.  Just carry on as usual. Just do what we have always done  and got more oe less nowhere as a result.. What is the point of it all?  It makes me despair at times when I read comments like those from the comrade from Todmorden – and, I have to say, not a little furious. What a waste.

[alanjjohnstone]

“The Party  is half the size it was when I  first joined and is still steadily declining  by all accounts. Oblivion is theoretically  quite on the cards and still we have members displaying advanced signs of  the Titanic syndrome – lashing out at any signs of fresh thinking. Lets all gather around the piano, comrades, and sing the red flag rather than “god save the queen” as we slowly sink below the waves but, for gods sake, dont even think about organising the liferafts!!!. Don’t think outside the black box.  Just carry on as usual. Just do what we have always done  and got more oe less nowhere as a result.” Isn’t this the same for all political groups. Even mainstream bourgeois parties are losing members. And if we are brutally honest ,  the Occupy Movement although offering a degree of inspiration was a side show in regards to numbers. Zeitgeist also raised  the imagination but led to no real impact on the vies of the working class.  We thought the unions were about to escalate their resistance, and they still may do , but the political solutions they are offering have remained in a Keynesian cul-de-sac. In comparison to those beforementioned 2005 saw the churches mobilise hundreds of thousands  in their ultimately futile end poverty campaign. What does that say of the potential of thinking outside the box?  Should we all don dog-collars and cassocks to reach out to those in dire need of some socialist catechisms to achieve a reversal of numbers? No  magic answer here right now. Just banging away with the same old arguments in the same old way. Because what is the alternative except to maintain principles.  But i think a case can be made for re-prioritising and re-shaping our case for socialism in changing conditions.  Yet we need to first reach a concensus upon what the foremost problems faced by workers are and which part of the socialist response would reach the most receptive audience. But even that poses its own problems. With all their focus groups and political analysists and social commentators, even the conventional capitalist parties continually raise themes and then drop them, they constantly switch and re-position their propaganda….with as much success as ourselves! If people have concrete  suggestions and practical proposals and then lets hear them. Otherwise, it’s all no different from the post …a wishy-washy outpouring of emotion.

[DJP]

 My final thoughts on this.Firstly I have no objection to a group of socialists getting together to engage in some kind agricultural project. And if it was nearby I would possibly contribute (or maybe not, a local vaguely “anarchist” group have actually been doing this for a number of years and despite numerous invites to tree plantings and the like I have yet to make it there!)I actually live on a farm. The whole operation only requires 2 people to run it. Most of the labour that goes into food production actually occurs in the manufacture of machinery and extraction of fuels. I don’t see why a socialist society would wish to return to the lifestyle of the serf, I certainly have better things to be doing with my time than watering the lettuces. So if anyone is still convinced that this is a course of action they want to take then get to it, it is not me that is stopping you.My reservations:Firstly this is not a new or fresh idea by any stretch of the imagination, people will have been saying similar things for the last 100+ years.Thinking about it, isn’t this how the Amish live? What does that tell us about socialism? I don’t know.. 

Gog_ wrote:

I originally stated that one of the guiding principles would be to challenge the local monopoly of businesses selling people to buy food: eventually, if succesfull enough severely impacting the profitability of such a business. The people doing so would be challenging the fundamental assumption within capitalism that so many people still labour under that, “you have to work, to earn money to pay for food”.

You’re letting your enthusiasm cloud your judgment. You are forgetting  the major thing that such a project would require, CAPITAL. If people are fortunate to have the free time they can give it for free,  but in a capitalist society land, machinery, seed stock etc are far from freely available. Without sufficient stocks of these your level of production is going to be petty to say the least. I don’t think you’d be able to produce enough crops to support many people either.But for most people on low wage jobs, who have to work longer hours, in terms of hours put in and produce at the end, they are going to be better of going to the super market.Sorry to not be overflowing with enthuisiasm but the cold economic facts speak the truth.

Quote:

I originally stated that one of the idea’s principles would be to produce a practical demonstration of socialism

This is probably my major reservation and as a social-scientist in training I should know it:If you where conducting this to try and demonstrate how a socialist society would operate you are going to be constructing an invalid experiment. What you would be measuring is not how affective socialized production is, but how a small group of people living within a capitalist society choose to use their free time. Though you could probably extrapolate some relevant data I guess…To conclude..If people get exposed to socialist ideas by getting involved in a socialist agriculture club then that can only be a good thing. But the same could be said of a socialist cycling club, a socialist rambling association or here’s a thought, a socialist discussion group that discusses socialism.

[Anonymous]

And that, comrades and friends, just about sums up the argument in a nutshell, albeit a rather large one

[Gog_]

In reference to some of the things the DJP has stated above:I have been working a medium sized “kitchen garden” and started with no capital. The tools existed prior to my moving in to the house, seeds, knowledge and everyother aspect has been donated from friends or family’s old tools etc and I have made considerable use out of all of these. I live on a farm and agree with what you say regarding the farm operation. This farm also works with a basic hand of the farmer and his son with a significant help from myself and others that live on the land. To start some kind of massive “revolutionary” gardening spree would yes, cause a need to have massive stocks of everything in abundance to achieve any kind of success. However, what I have stated is something to start from small with an aim to work up to a series of small groups doing the same later which, then naturally grow according to use and numbers involved with the culmination of further groups farer afield that can then link to prioritise, store and facilitate a range of seed production, plant propagation and so on.Land may also not be “free” however, it can be freely made available. All is needed is for the right people to say “yes”. I fully agree that only a small amount of people could be sustained at any small level. And that is the point, if people want to do it, are motivated enough, can identify problems and overcome them successfully, work together and the rest then something can be achieved.I also agree with, “If people get exposed to socialist ideas by getting involved in a socialist agriculture club then that can only be a good thing. But the same could be said of a socialist cycling club, a socialist rambling association or here’s a thought, a socialist discussion group that discusses socialism.”And quite right so: why not have a socialist cycling club, rambling association and more of the socialist discussion groups. There’s no issue with that at all and can only be a good thing indeed.While there may be restrictions associated with working such an idea within capitalism, this only lends more to the point in case. If people can achieve “this much” within capitalism, imagine what we can achieve without the need to bother with money. I’m not saying create a model for socialism, or a model of socialism, I’m saying show people what they can do now to help eachother to live without the need to generate profit and extrapolate it into the future, match it with the other areas of life: energy, sheter etc and you’ve opened up socialism to a bunch of practically minded, motivated and “enlightened” people that you otherwise may well not have.At the same time, get a cycling club and a rambling association and we can spread the socialist literature around the country quicker and in places that the even the internet cannot reach.

[robbo203]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

No  magic answer here right now. Just banging away with the same old arguments in the same old way. Because what is the alternative except to maintain principles. 

 Alan There is nothing wrong with the banging away with the same old arguments,  maintaining principles etc etc. I am all for that . What I am saying is that,  in addition to that, we (or rather you,  since I am not member because I cannot accept the Party’s  daft policy on religious applicants – not that I’m religious myself ) need to expand – possibly quite dramatically – the  repertoire of approaches used in addition to the old way of doing things. Its not just a presentational issue either though of course presentational improvements are to be welcomed. But tweaking the socialist case is just a refinement of the old way of doing things – based purely and simply on abstract propaganda  – not an addition There is no one single “answer”. There is no one single magic bullet.  .  This is the mind set that needs to be jettisoned completely if the SPGB is to stop its decline,  let alone show serious signs of growth.  It is a multiplicity of approaches that is needed.  It is SYNERGY that we need to think in terms of . Brian’s example is a small pointer of the kind thinking that is desperately needed. Even if the Party itself is functionally restrained in what it is able to do there is nothing to stop individual socialists doing other things. The problem is that the Party just fence sits on the matter and will refuse to countenance a supportive and positive attitude. This is reflected in the completely negative attitudes of some members like the member form Todmorden. That I am afraid is precisely where the Party goes wrong.  Terribly wrong. It is cutting off potential channels of support that could flow its way if only it put its mind to it..  Which is terribly sad because when all is said and done, the SPGB is the only genuinely socialist political party around and here it  is fading away quietly before our very eyes like the Cheshire cat’s grin

[DJP]

…And so the negation is negated and we reach a new understanding. (Sorry, I’ve got a very niche sense of humour!)One last thing though:

Gog_ wrote:

Land may also not be “free” however, it can be freely made available. All is needed is for the right people to say “yes”. 

You can not only say this about land, but anything that takes the form of private property, think about it…

[Gog_]

DJP: “You can not only say this about land, but anything that takes the form of private property, think about it…”I know, I have referred to that very same premise consistently. And it is one of my main points to the whole idea: that people come to realise that by doing: by reclaiming such a basic aspect of living that is producing food.At the moment people are hung-up on the “fact” that we need all the businesses to live. We don’t need supermarket owned markets, farms, distribution systems; we don’t need energy companies that claim ownership to oil and gas fields and that own the power stations; we don’t need the state that regulates how and what people can and cannot do in their lives. Unfortunately, the vast majority people either aren’t conscious of this or, they think it somewhere in the backs of their minds but are too scared to put it to the test.If we can give people a relatively easy way to bring out that doubt into the fore and to get people to question openly the apparent “need” that we are tricked into thinking we have of the state, the business and money then we can trigger a bigger movement somewhere down the line. Discussion groups and literature help to do this, what we need is something else-something extra-for people that do not participate or do not want to participate/feel capable of doing so for one reason or another. I’m not saying “change the message” or principles or anything of the sort. What I’m saying is change something to let more and more people realise what we want them to realise.There’s going to be little joy in relying on living conditions to reduce and people’s frustration to build up to such terrible levels that people are somehow going to spontaneously wake up one day and say “socialism is the way to go for me”. 

[DJP]

Gog_ wrote:

There’s going to be little joy in relying on living conditions to reduce and people’s frustration to build up to such terrible levels that people are somehow going to spontaneously wake up one day and say “socialism is the way to go for me”. 

Indeed, and I’ll think you’ll find this is not the party’s case either.

[Author]

Posts