Scottish Referendum

[ALB]

I'm not sure that these are all scare stories. Of course the British State's Establishment doesn't want Scotland to breakaway because this would diminish their clout on the world stage and are no doubt exaggerating the economic consequences. But there will be such consequences which will have unfavourable consequences for workers. I suspect many workers realise this (and why I am confident No will win).If Scotland had been separate at the time of the 2008 crash they would have suffered the same fate as Iceland as they would have been unable to have bailed out the banks established there. As Left Keynesian Michael Roberts put it in that blog I mentioned:

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Both Ireland and Iceland were brought their knees by an oversized banking sector that took ‘hot money’ and relent it recklessly to destruction. The banks were bailed out in Ireland at huge and continuing cost to Irish households. Iceland was forced to devalue, creating sky-high inflation and it had to negotiate a deal for repaying lost bank deposits with the UK and Holland, again at a huge loss to the living standards of its small community (see my post, http://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2013/04/28/icelands-electors-how-ungrateful/). Scotland would face the same issue.

The banks are preparing to leave because they know an independent Scotland wouldn't be able to bail them out.I spoke to one member in Scotland and he told me he hoped that No would win because he was afraid of what would happen to his savings if Yes won. Are you putting your money where your mouth is and leaving your savings in Scotland? I wouldn't advise it.

[Anonymous]

I honestly don't care either way what the result is.I don't have any savings.I think it will be  narrow vote for the status quo,purely on economic terms, but it is still too close to call.I think a lot of 'No' voters will be doing so with metaphorical clothes pegs on their noses at some of the sickening Brit. nationalism they have had to listen to from the likes of Cameron,Galloway, Milliband and the other one.Also with the Pope and the Orange order singing from a dissimilar hymn sheet but concluding "No", together.(Jeez, I feel ill.)I like the idea of younger voters also.Interesting too, that according to a survey, they rate education,economics jobs and pensions in the top 5 of their concerns. (One in the eye for carnaptious,crabbit auld gits.The youngsters are no more confused than them.)I can see me stickering outside secondary schools, to get them searching for, 'worldsocialism.org'.I think too ,Alan's point about the stickers was a good one.I also think we should use the worldsocialist movement option3 more, to place this on ballot papers.Salmond is  a cute operator, as is his deputy Sturgeon,They give an impression of being more 'Left' than Labour,which isn't hard to do but they have pulled it off well.Alan's point here, "There was campaign picture from the Yes campaign that tried to present them as internationalists…YES in umpteen languages, representing the migrant part of Scotland…so i am not sure that your characterisation of him as a nasty little nationalist is quite accurate compared with the proven xenophobic nastiness of Cameron and the aspiring nasty nationalism of Miliband's Labour."Salmond has played a blinder with this also, has a lot of first and second immigrant generation supporters in the bag,Kilts and all,(the mcKhan tartan?) but his constituents don't necessarliy go along with all of that.

[Anonymous]

Re; Letter from SSPI put a Standard into their great leader's hand,  along with a lot of the SSP's activists at the Edinburgh May Day demo and cordially invited them along to the Glasgow /Edinburgh Day School.It is just a pity they didn't take us up on it. Judging by the above letter, there is so much information which they would have found useful.

[alanjjohnstone]

ALB, i think going down what you call the economistic road of comparing the immediate material benefits of Yes or No for individual workers is the wrong one. (Anyway its all hypothetical because our activity was sadly minimal)The comparison with Iceland is a bit risky since many applauded the fact that they declined to bail out the banks and endeavoured to bring criminal charges against the bankers. While Ireland was part of the Euro and were bailed out by those, the difference between UK welfare cuts and Irish cuts is wafer thin. As Matt said on my other non-economic policies…foreign affairs, nuclear weapons, immigration and energy… SNP attracts the more "radical" voter and as he said is now positioned left of Labour. I do personally think it is scare tactics being used…rather than serious consequences for Scotland, the negative effects may well be more important for the UK rump, , such as a speculated drop of 15% in the value of sterling if it is a Yes…and that scares ALL investors in the GB yet the Unionists are trying to instil the fear of uncertainty in only a part of the population – those north of the border. I don't think things will be the same for English or Welsh folk. And the real fear of the English Left is the prospect of eternal Tory rule. Latest report in the Independent is that the new Miliband government after the next election drops to a minority government without Scots MPs.Our position which we did apply to our campaign was the correct one …a broader principled long term response based upon the class analysis of rejection of working class alliance with a section of our ruling class and regardless of the vote result – nothing changes for the majority.Latest poll is 4% (less perhaps when the error margin) for the No but it is going to be to the wire. The spring back of the don't knows but veering to the No has passed with the Yes result poll in the Sunday Times and visits from the party leaders and the remaining don't knows i think may well be potential Yesses…Imagine if our abstention/spoiled ballot paper had been full scale…political attention of the media may well have been directed towards ourselves to influence the vote outcome. As i said if a few stickers resulted in substantial feedback…a larger intervention by ourselves may have highlighted our existance even more. Matt's comment about the WSM title and stickers to promote it to younger generation is also to be supported in the post-referendum days which may see a lot of deflated Yes supporters in search for an alternative New Jerusalem rather than continuing to campaign for a New Scotland.

[ALB]

I see the Conservatives too are considering changing their name because of the Scottish referendum to ET … Effing Tories.

[alanjjohnstone]

Robert Fisk on the Irish/Scottish independence comparisons http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/scottish-independence-ireland-since-1919-is-a-lesson-for-scotland-in-what-a-yes-vote-means-9727596.html

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So if the Yes voters win, my guess is the Scots will insist they are independent while knowing they are not. And the British will claim that the Scots are still British at heart. And go on doing what they’ve always done: publish the work of Irish and Scots poets in anthologies of “English poetry”.

[ALB]

I see there's a Party member on our Facebook page arguing for a Yes vote:

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The problem is, world socialism is not on the agenda. The choice is between yes and no for Scotland. If you spoil the ballot paper, it's not voting. Which aids and abets the status quo. A status quo which isn't in the interests of the working class of Scotland. If Scotland votes Yes, it would unleash a political demon. The spectre that Marx envisaged.

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Cannot believe Scottish socialists (members of Socialist Party of Former Great Britain) think they are doing right by not voting Yes

It is true that a Yes vote, resulting in the breakup of Britain, would result is a political crisis, a constitutional crisis, a fiscal crisis and an economic crisis, but I would have thought that this was a reason for not wanting the Yes side to win. I don't think we need to care about the first three types of crisis but it's workers who are always the victims of an economic crisis, so why provoke one when there's no need for one? I doubt, too, that the effect of these crises would be favourable for the spread of socialist ideas. I would expect them to exacerbate nationalist prejudices and tensions in both Scotland and England.I still say that, from a reformist/trade union point of view (effect on workers standard of living within capitalism) there is no case for Yes. It definitely won't make things better. The SNP's promises of free this and free that, better this and better that are just the usual politicians empty vote-catching promises. At best it will make no difference but I think the evidence is that it would risk making things worse and probably would. Actually, workers in Scotland seem to realise this as, according to the same opinion poll Alan mentions:

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Almost half of Scots, 48 per cent, now think that an independent country would be worse off overall … Similarly 45 per cent think that an independent Scotland would make them personally financially worse off.

I agreewith Matt  that the No campaign has made a big mistake to bus up English politicians to fake a "passionate" British nationalism. They should have left it to business leaders to announce their contingency plans in the event of a Yes vote. That would have done the trick for them better.Anyway, we are socialists and have adopted the only possible socialist policy of not taking sides and casting a write-in vote for world socialism.  I say only possible but when we first discussed this I did float the idea of voting No and writing World Socialism across the ballot paper to show our rejection of Scottish nationalism as well as support for World Socialism but there were no takers apart from a comrade from Wales who had done this in the referendum a few years ago on whether or not to set ip a Welsh Assembly..

[Anonymous]

Russell Brand supports the Scottish elite against the English elite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNvfSL8eJLQ 

[Anonymous]

ALB wrote:

I see there's a Party member on our Facebook page arguing for a Yes vote:

Quote:

The problem is, world socialism is not on the agenda. The choice is between yes and no for Scotland. If you spoil the ballot paper, it's not voting. Which aids and abets the status quo. A status quo which isn't in the interests of the working class of Scotland. If Scotland votes Yes, it would unleash a political demon. The spectre that Marx envisaged.

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Cannot believe Scottish socialists (members of Socialist Party of Former Great Britain) think they are doing right by not voting Yes

The same member is making a similar argument on the World Socialist Movement Facebook page:

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SPGB is not coping well with the referendum debate. The Yes campaign has encouraged thousands of Scots to get on the electoral register, which is a great achievement, beyond anything the SPGB has ever achieved. SPGB needs to go with the flow, and welcome this new phase in British politics. If Scotland votes Yes, our job becomes easier (bigger fish in smaller pond).

"World socialism is not on the agenda"? "Go with the flow"?  New SNP recruit sometime soon?https://www.facebook.com/groups/worldsocialism/https://www.facebook.com/groups/4940054730/

[Anonymous]

 

ALB wrote:

I see there's a Party member on our Facebook page arguing for a Yes vote:

gnome wrote:

The same member is making a similar argument on the World Socialist Movement Facebook page:"World socialism is not on the agenda"? "Go with the flow"? 

 I have looked at the application questionaire and I think a question on nationalism is needed.

[Socialist Party Head Office]

Another email received at Head Office from Douglas Alexander at Labour HQ, We are sending him our statement and sticker.

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Friend, we have just six days to keep the United Kingdom together.Even if you can't vote in this referendum, you can make a difference by chipping in to support our campaign. This is so close that every pound counts.Donate £3Donate £5Donate another amountIf Scotland leaves the UK, it will break up our Labour family, and be a blow to social justice across these islands. This shared pursuit of social justice is the Labour Party's founding principle and has driven us to our greatest achievements: the NHS, the welfare state, the National Minimum Wage. While the referendum is a decision for Scotland, the debate about solidarity is one for everyone. In this final week, let's stand together as a Labour movement, united, in every part of the UK. Thanks for your support, Douglas

[Anonymous]

Should maybe send them a list of Labour's anti working class assaults. I think we need a new pamphlet or statement on the Labour Party 

[ALB]

I'm not sure about that. Haven't most people already seen through the effing Labour Party (as we can now call the parliamentary parties) including those who vote for it, i.e they vote for it without illusions. So no need for us to spell out that the Labour Party won't do anything for workers any more than any other party.

[alanjjohnstone]

Was there not  nationalism pamphlet in the pipeline?

[ALB]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

Robert Fisk on the Irish/Scottish independence comparisons http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/scottish-independence-ireland-since-1919-is-a-lesson-for-scotland-in-what-a-yes-vote-means-9727596.html

What happened after Ireland got "independence" is indeed relevant to the debate in Scotland today but the subheading to the article is highly tendentious (though Fisk himself may not be responsible for it).

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Scottish Independence: Ireland since 1919 is a lesson for Scotland in what a Yes vote means.The last divorce from the United Kingdom was painful and acrimonious, but ended in harmony and prosperity.

What happened in Ireland after "independence" in 1922 is indeed a lesson for the debate in Scotland today, but the sub-heading is highly tentendious (though Fisk himself may not have been responsible for it).Things are ok today but it took working class conditions in Ireland some 50 years to catch up with those in the rest of British Isles. To start with, things got worse, as the Manifesto of the Socialist Party of Ireland, our companion party there noted in 1949:

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But so far as the working class were concerned all that was accomplished by the achieving of national independence and self-government for 26 of the 32 Irish counties was a change of masters. The boss-worker relationship remained, though the British left; and the first Irish (Free State) Government soon settled down to its job of administering capitalism in the interest of its masters, the property-owning class of that part of Ireland.The conditions of the working class during the first ten years of the "Irish Free State" became apparently no better — in fact, deteriorated.

See from page 7 on of the pamphlet here. It gets worseA case could even be made out for saying that the working class in Ireland would have been better off if the 26 counties hadn't broken away as this meant that they were excluded from the social reforms which the British State could afford but which the Irish State could'.t. In any event, it's a travesty to say that "independence" brought "prosperity " to Ireland.

[Author]

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