Scottish Independence

[alanjjohnstone]

There is now a real possibilty of a second independence referendum in Scotland since two-thirds support membership of the EU

With changed circumstances does it mean a changed position for us. 

Much of our previous argument against supporting independence for Scotland was that it would break the traditional and historical links with fellow workers in England and Wales and Northern Ireland. We argued independence weakened the workers and their organisations of all the UK and that we should continue standing together so to be more effective in the class struggle.  

Now that Brexit threatens the links Scottish workers have with their EU counterparts should we now re-focus our case. Is brotherhood with Europeans more important than fraternity with fellow-Brits?

Some on the forum supported a Yes vote in the EU referendum for "internationalist" reasons, will they now support a Yes vote for Scottish independence for the same reasons.  Would supporting Scottish independence because it supports the EU mean having the ability to advocate the abolition of borders and a planned coordinated world economy. 

Or is it better for the Party to remain implacably opposed or agnostic (for a better word) in our attitude to Scottish Independence and treat it as an irrelevancy.

[Ike Pettigrew]

The irony of your post has not escaped me.Do you think that the mass immigration that you and your capitalist enemies support might also have "…weakened the workers and their organisations…" and impeded their ability to "…stand together so as to be more effective in the class struggle"?Do tell.

[alanjjohnstone]

I have had personal experience of witnessing many foreign migrant workers standing together in support of fellow-workers during an unofficial strike which did not directly affect them and would not directly benefit them and had many of them risking dismissal. But there was no scabbing and the handful of workers that did strike-break proved to be indigenous. It is a shame that some folk seek to divide and accomplish a self-fulfilling prediction by sowing dissent and discord, rather than foster solidarity and unity. I recall one of the most effective ads produced by the independence campaign in the 2014 referendum was one where they presented non-Scottish-born pledging to vote Yes. And by all accounts, a majority did support an independent Scotland, and again it seems Scottish independence (and i think Catalonian too) does not threaten ethnic minorities or newcomers. Unlike the pro-nationalist vote of Brexit.  

[Ike Pettigrew]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

I have had personal experience of witnessing many foreign migrant workers standing together in support of fellow-workers during an unofficial strike which did not directly affect them and would not directly benefit them and had many of them risking dismissal. But there was no scabbing and the handful of workers that did strike-break proved to be indigenous. It is a shame that some folk seek to divide and accomplish a self-fulfilling prediction by sowing dissent and discord, rather than foster solidarity and unity. I recall one of the most effective ads produced by the independence campaign in the 2014 referendum was one where they presented non-Scottish-born pledging to vote Yes. And by all accounts, a majority did support an independent Scotland, and again it seems Scottish independence (and i think Catalonian too) does not threaten ethnic minorities or newcomers. Unlike the pro-nationalist vote of Brexit.  

Your bland response, crafted in social work lingo, contradicts your original post, but is very telling – particularly the part I have emboldened above.Anything that goes against your narrow views is a "self-fulfilling prediction" and designed to sow "dissent and discord".  Anything that accords with your views is DoublePlusGood as it is intended to "foster solidarity and unity".You think we can "foster solidarity and unity" among people from completely different cultures, who will all happily live together in harmony in a Rainbow society.  There will be no more Rotherhams, no more Colognes – which in any case didn't happen, I assume? Or is it OK because it only happened to white working class slags and who cares about them anyway?  They're not from swanky London or trendy Glasgow or Manchester and they haven't read The Poverty of Philosophy or attended university seminars on topics like: Critical Gender Theory in Post-industrial Societies.  So who cares about them?The open borders policy you want for capitalism now, will have no effect on the living conditions of the working class.  Of course!  It was obvious.  I'm so thick!  There are plenty of jobs available, the workers just need to get on their bikes and look for work, yes?  Mass immigration has not had any effect on wages or housing!  That's just our imagination.  We just all need to get together and join hands.  In truth, you're the extremist, and I have doubts you're even a socialist.  It seems to me that the SPGB, in common with its leftist counterparts, has been taken over by metropolitan liberal-leftists.  Your worldview is entirely totalitarian (in the true, uncolloquial meaning of that term).  There is no room for any consideration of the thoughts, views and feelings of people who disagree with you, as they are just common people who haven't read any books.Besides, we mustn't have "dissent and discord", by which you mean we mustn't have anybody with different views to yours.  Arguments, shouting, disagreement and other masculine stuff is embarrassing.  We all need to agree all the time about everything.  In other words, we mustn't let normal people take part in debate.  Only commissars, freaks and fanatics are entitled to have an opinion, as they have read all the right pamphlets and Think The Right Thoughts.  Those provincial heretics who think that to "foster solidarity and unity" we also need to have a shared culture and identity are "racist" or "fascist" or "ahistorical" or "haters", or imbued with "false consciousness" – fancy ways of saying that their views are to marginalised as they don't fit easily or at all into your totalitarian vision, which just amounts to liberal fetishism.

[alanjjohnstone]

Quote:

Do you think that the mass immigration that you and your capitalist enemies support might also have "…weakened the workers and their organisations…" and impeded their ability to "…stand together so as to be more effective in the class struggle"? Do tell.

Isn't it more telling that i did answer this question very directly and you fail to acknowledge it since the answer was not one you wish to hear, nor advice you seek to heed. You are the one who wishes to disregard the research and the experts on the subject. but i will concede for the sake of 100% accuracy here has been a small effect on some workers by migration but there has always been and in my life-time i have seen women, youths and the irish being being blamed for low pay and lack of jobs.But as Robert Burns said facts are chiels that winnae dingIn September 2016, a group of 13 economists, along with Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz and three other chief economists of the World Bank, met in Sweden to deliberate on the main challenges facing the global economy, and drafted a document highlighting some key issues. This consensus document, the Stockholm Statement, explained the real reason for depressed incomes and unemployment of the working classes in developed countries was not that workers from other countries are taking jobs but the two main culprits were the slow rate of creation of new jobs, and the increasing inequality in the share of labour (wages) and capital (profits) within their own countries.  A team of researchers led by the University at Buffalo in New York examined census data and crime reports from 200 US cities in the years between 1970 and 2010. They found “strong and stable evidence” that crime rates are not linked to immigration. The study’s lead author Robert Adelman, said, “The results are very clear.” Higher levels of immigration are in fact related to a drop in some types of crime.  You mention the shameful assaults in Cologne but overlook the fake claims about Frankfurt, which confirms what i assert….that there are some who do indeed wish to create a false impression to divide. I certainly do not believe that every newcomer to the country is an angel and saint. The number of Poles in UK prison proves that. But let us be clear, German data show despite a 444% increase in migrants, crime among that gropu only went up 79%. The typical German was more likely to break the law than the average migrant(and, a bit of history will reveal similar racism was expressed against the Turkish in Germany).  Most of the crimes committed by the refugees are related to theft or trying to ride public transport without a ticket. Less than 1% were sex crimes.  As far as many of your other statements such as " we mustn't let normal people take part in debate.", the fact that you are on this forum, engaging in discussion with myself demonstrates clearly that you don't hold too much respect for the truth. We welcome disagreement and contrary opinion which presents us with an opportunity to exlain our case for socialism, but we do prefer them to be supported by reasoned argument and that actual evidence is offered instead of your wild claims. 

[alanjjohnstone]

Just today i read that some of "those provincial heretics" , not just those cosmpolitans are crying out for migrant workers since there simply is not enough local unemployed available whether they have bikes or not. https://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2017/02/capitalism-needs-migrants.htmlPoskitt's Carrots is a £35m a year business in the East Riding of Yorkshire. "If we didn't have access to non-UK labour we just could not run this business," says managing director Guy Poskitt. "I wouldn't even attempt to try and run it. Take away 80% of my workforce how can I operate?" Guy Poskitt doesn't want to be reliant on migrant labour, but argues that there just aren't the domestic workers available from the rural communities nearby. Graham Usher, who heads York's Hoteliers' Association, when asked what about using British workers? "There just aren't enough of them around. York only has about 700 unemployed people and that is it."

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