Satire and counterpropaganda.
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Covvie99, you have probably realised that when a thread “turns” a page, one’s message is lost. When this happens, I press the back arrow and copy and paste to reuse, remembering to add a few words, so that a “duplicate message” alert doesn’t block it.
Thomas, I split it and added a few words which as you said works, but the reason why it had happened wasn’t apparent to me. So thanks for the info I know now 🙂
But All profit under Nationalised industry is used to reduce costs to the public and to reinvest to improve services.
That’s not the case. Nationalisation, as practised by Labour (and Tory and Liberal for that matter) governments, involves the government buying out the shareholders. A alternative name for this was “state purchase”.
Typically, the shareholders were paid (“compensated”) by being given interest-bearing government bonds. So, instead of receiving dividends on shares they received interest on bonds. They continued to draw a property income from the exploitation of the workers in the nationalised industries. Or they could sell the bonds and use the money to invest in sone private business.
These “compensation” payments were a financial burden on the nationalised industries. When taken into account, they reduced the profits made by the coal industry and the railways, even turning an operating profit into an overall loss.
Nationalisation is state capitalism where the profit changes form from dividends on shares to interest on government bonds.
Before the 1980s and Thatcher’s neoliberalism; privatisation didn’t really exist in Britain. There was no other way of doing things. The industry was built from the ground up with taxpayer money, it’s national infrastructure. Bonds are only required to ‘buy back’ national infrastructure from private enterprises.
Privatisation – The art of siphoning taxpayer money to the offshore accounts of the rich and infamous while reducing public infrastructure to a debt-ridden corpse run by mindless managers on extortionate salaries.
Infrastructure projects (roads, etc) could be paid for from taxes but are more usually financed by the government borrowing the money, ie by selling interest-bearing government bonds to investors. So, even in that case, the idle rich are getting a share.
National infrastructure is part of the social contract between a government and the people. We pay taxes to provide infrastructures such as roads, schools, hospitals, and industry to supply our needs etc. These infrastructures are still required and therefore still exist outside capitalism. Yes in a Capitalist system there are other industries that are private and not considered state infrastructure.
In 2021 the taxpayer paid over £120.1 billion in subsidies to corporations (over £2 billion a week). That’s before we mention grants, tax breaks, bailouts etc that privatisation requires. As well as topping up our own wages through tax credits. Then there’s the tax gap of £40 billion per annum from non-payment of taxes, which some independent sources suggest is actually between £40-120 billion per annum. Corporate welfare is unnecessary, if capitalists can’t compete in their chosen system then their enterprise should be allowed to go bankrupt. Rather than being saved by the taxpayer with bailouts.
What we have is capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich. We also predominantly tax working income in this country and not wealth. There are two lists produced each year of the richest people in Britain and the highest taxpayers in Britain in each year. Surprisingly there are very few commonalities on that list. Most of the very wealthy in Britain pay less than 1% tax, while the working wealthy pay 45%.
There was a documentary some weeks ago about the Labour Party’s machinations against Corbyn. This happens inside undemocratic leadership parties like Labour.
Yes since the 80s the Labour party has been infiltrated by centrists such as Blair who use thatcher’s neoliberalism more than Social Democracy. They’ve turned the party into a corporate puppet via state and corporate lobbyists as opposed to relying on Union funding and member fees. Since Starmer took over from Corbyn the party has lost 30% of its membership and is back in debt.
People often accuse us of being a cultist when we mention Corbyn, but I’d support anyone who had his integrity and ideological values. I usually reply to this that I’m off to pray to a 10ft effigy of Corbyn:
Our ideology that art for everyone. Socialism be thy name. Our time will come as capitalism is undone on earth as it is inevitable. Give unto those your daily charity and forgive us our profits. As we forgive neoliberals who use profit against us. And lead us not into greed, but deliver us from monopolies. For thine is dialectical materialism, class struggle against the Tories. Forever and ever, ahem…
The Labour Party, from its formation in 1906, did socialism a serious disservice, by seducing the workers away from it. We already existed, from 1904, for real socialism, but Labour was formed to compromise with the capitalists and begin an endlessly futile path of reforms.
Seducing? While I’m no longer affiliated with the Labour party since Blair dropped clause 4 – the socialist base of Labour ideology – I still see them as the only option to reduce the excesses of Capitalism. If we can’t get Socialism via support of its ideologies and by using direct action then we have to adapt to the world in which we live. While like you, I’d prefer a clean break from Capitalism there just isn’t enough support to make that happen. Due to the media and entrainment of the masses, Socialism isn’t getting the support it needs to contend against Capitalism. We need plurality of the media, investigative journalism and honest criticism/challenging of the government and its policies. They’ve done a number on Socialism and even Social Democracy is seen as hard-left these days as the Overton window shifts further right. While I used to hope for ideological shift through increments, since the hijacking of the Labour party that isn’t likely.
As I’ve previously stated many on the left who are Socialists and supported the historical Labour party via Social Democracy/Democratic Socialism have been let down. Especially in recent years with the purge of Socialists from the Labour party. I’ve heard on this forum that you consider these people faux socialists, I’d argue they are realists. If you can’t get support to overthrow Capitalism then you just become a talking shop – see Python’s ‘Life of Brian’ for examples.
“While like you, I’d prefer a clean break from Capitalism there just isn’t enough support to make that happen.”
And people saying just that ensures there never will be.
” many on the left who are Socialists and supported the historical Labour party via Social Democracy/Democratic Socialism have been let down.”
They should look us up.
Thomas, “And people saying just that ensures there never will be.” I’m a realist, why wouldn’t I accept the situation for what it is? should I live in a delusion? or tabloid illusion? I’ve read your party’s beliefs and agree with much of it, more in sentiment than fact. But what are you doing to make positive change? To challenge the predominant belief systems? It seems you have a small membership that doesn’t have much representation on social media, judging from what one of your members has said. You’ve had over 100 years and I see little representation from your group, and little challenge to the approaching corporatocracy. Get involved with people who share similar base belief systems like getting rid of Capitalism and proposing a resource-based economy with communal ownership. Take the fight to the real enemy instead of arguing insular views on politics amoung yourselves.
“They should look us up.” No, you should work hard to encourage them to share the fight based on similar ethics and ideologies rather than constantly insulting them. You think a proud Socialist will join a group that call them a Faux Socialist? A group that claim absolutism regarding political change? If you can’t get support for a change in Capitalism after a hundred years and are losing support while allowing the Overton window to shift further to the right, then incremental change to move society back to the Socialist perspective should be your goals. At least in my opinion.
I’ll stick around and join debate if I’m welcome, but the ideological war is being fought on social media and in the tabloids.
” Get involved with people who share similar base belief systems like getting rid of Capitalism ”
Except they are not for getting rid of capitalism, but for reforms within it. And they’ve been reforming for over a century and the problems are still here.
Left capitalism will become rightist capitalism, then back again, and back again, as the repetitive cycle of boom and slump continues. And capitalism can’t function any other way, as Robbo has said.
Politicians don’t control it. It controls them.
Oscar Wilde was correct: the worst boss is a kind boss.Your “ideological war” isn’t going to achieve anything. But intensifying misery and global devastation and climate change just might.
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