Russian Tensions
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Ukrainian stamp honouring Ukrainian ultranationalist and founder of the Banderites.
Our stands that were taken during WW1, WW2, the so-called patriotic war of the soviet union, the Korean War, and the Vietnam conflict was the appropriate stands that should have been taken by all socialists/communists
We were the only political party that consistently opposed all these wars, but as individuals so did the anarchists (except for Kropotkin, who was given a dressing down for it by Makhno).
Putin’s inner circle
It’s not very long ago that some people on this forum were saying that there would be no war in Ukraine. (Indeed, the ‘Almost-War’ article in this month’s Standard now looks risible. But hey! Even socialists aren’t always right.)
It’s a mistake, I think, to try to second-guess the behaviour of those who care nothing for working-class interests. Will Putin order the sinking of vessels carrying armaments? Who knows? All predictions in such a complex scenario are bound to be at least partly wrong.
IDrive, The socialist position is not pacifism and individual members are not setting themselves up to be martyrs. We want to live for socialism.
In a hypothetical situation of a Ukrainian WSM member, I would guess it would be wise to stop voicing his or her politics knowing the threat to life and the priority would be to seek safety and sanctuary as a refugee. It seems most men are forbidden from fleeing but I’m sure it is still possible. If not, there are non-combatant roles one could perform.
I have faced or rather faced down aggressive drunks in pub arguments before. It is easy to simply change the subject and defuse the tension. I cannot recall any recourse to self-defence
I can’t personally imagine what it would be like to be a WSM member in Ukraine at the moment, Alan, but what I do think is that being a potty-mouthed, arrogant 3rd Dan black belt revolutionary socialist motherfucker would easily get me killed!
I also live for socialism, whatever the cost. Chin up, eh?
“But wait! Drunk people can be convinced of the case for socialism, no?
And you haven’t answered my question. Sometimes you can’t avoid drunk people when putting the case for the abolition of the wages system. And sometimes, with drunken shitwitted buffoons, they want to offer you violence. I’m interested in what the party line might be.”
IDABM
Generally drunk people can be convinced about the case for socialism, however they generally forget about it the next day.
As to violence, if threatened I have been more and happy to “put the boot in” if required to keep myself safe.
I remember vividly in the 1980s a rather pasty faced SWP student member, who thought himself a “bit of a lad” taking exception to me describing him (correctly) as a red fascist and saying that he was going to put a glass in my face. As a result, then Cde Paul Robinson (last seen in Japan) pulled out a primed crossbow, which somehow calmed him down enough to start a reasoned debate.
In a similar way my mate, but no longer a party member, diffused a confontation with a bunch of Combat 18 fascists by explaining to them in very explicit ways, that if they didn’t stop threatening our group of Comrades selling Socialist Standards, he was going to kick the f**king shit out of them.
It must be also recognised that ex Comrades Marratty and Colburn (and some of the ex miners at Seaham Branch) were particularly useful to have around if the “ultimate dialectic” needed to be explained,.
So it is not the case that the SPGB is a pacifist party, just not prepared to kill or be killed for capitalsim.
That said, I also am also aware that as nowadays being a person in his early 60s, I might show a little more caution in such a situation (but not much).
You can kick the brains out of fascist racist scum, IDrive, but you can’t kick the socialist case into their brain.
And with reasoned rational argument, it is possible to persuade the most stubborn of people, after all, they usually became what they are because they were full of discontent and unrest at the way they perceived the present system allocates fairness and equity.
In my union days, I encountered those I called orange-reds, staunch union members who were bigoted, Unionist Rangers or Hearts supporters but who were always the first on the picket lines. They somehow even managed to differentiate the trade unionist James Connolly from the Irish nationalist James Connolly and would stood side-by-side with Celtic or Hibernian Republican sympathisers against the bosses. Class interests overcame their religious affiliations.
To counter bullies and violence, Woody Allen took up dancing, so he could provide a moving target.
More workers on both sides of the Atlantic calling for a no-fly zone, which is tantamount to campaigning for mass nuclear annihilation.
(Indeed, the ‘Almost-War’ article in this month’s Standard now looks risible. But hey! Even socialists aren’t always right.)
This a bit unfair. It doesn’t take into consideration that the Socialist Standard is a monthly publication whose articles are prepared two weeks before the beginning of the month, which means it can’t deal with events that happen in between or during the cover month.
You are right that most of us here wrongly argued that Russia wouldn’t invade (except Cassandra, not sure that name is apt as she was cursed with being able to predict the future but that nobody would believe her — and he is now predicting WWIII). But that article didn’t express that view. It simply left the options open, beginning:
“They told us that 16 February would be the day that Russia was going to invade Ukraine. But diplomatic discussions continued. What had happened? Did Putin really intend to go to war? Or were what appeared to be war preparations merely a means to exert pressure and win concessions from the West?”
And of course the rest of the article puts the subject into historical context followed by a socialist political analysis.
Our dilemma for next month is whether WWIII will break out before it is published. But we could announce that on the cover and then claim that it was an April Fool.
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