Russian Tensions
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One of the things that strikes me about this whole sordid business of the Ukraine war is the utter hypocrisy of the protagonists (on both sides mind you)
Here´s a video clip of Lavrov pointing out the hypocrisy of the US regime recognizing the right of Israel to annex the Golan Heights that previously belonged to Syria. on the grounds that was in Israeli national security interests to do so. Yet Blinken the US spokesman does not extend the same right to Russia to annex Crimea for precisely the same reasons.
Of course, this comparison could backfire on Lavrov because it implies a parallel between Russia’s and Israel´s situation and thereby justifies Israel´s takeover of the Golan Heights in a roundabout way. Still, it is instructive in showing the double standards of the capitalist warmongers. When it suits them international law will be set aside and conveniently forgotten
They are all the same and it is a mistake to support anyone of them, and to die for them it is even worse
ALB (#247266)
Thanks for the explanation of your query re the 82% polling figure which I initially quoted in a previous post (#247252). “In most countries” you say, “you would expect this to be at least 99%”. Whaaat??
I can only make sense of this if you were speaking of countries with a totalitarian regime, like say North Korea today, or as it was in the worst of times in the USSR. Putin hasn’t quite gone down that road as far as I can see nor has Ukraine. Still, anything is possible I guess.You also say that I left unanswered your request for the percentage of people polled etc. This refers to the third para in my previous post where I indicated the source as The Economist, 23/09/2023, which in that issue has two lengthy articles on Ukraine (pp. 16-20). Having now re-read this article I see that there were figures following the sentence I quoted: “Support for negotiations with Russia is relatively low”. The figures are: 32% in the east and 39% in the south. These figures appear to have come from Darina Solodova, a sociologist with the UN Development Programme in Kiev. She says that “only 23% think it is worth initiating negotiations.” I take it that this would be an aggregate figure (Ukraine-wide). The higher figures for the east and the south are to be expected , given the higher percentage of ethnic Russians in those areas. I think if, as seems likely, the war in Ukraine contnues to a stalemate, the numbers supporting negotiations with Russia would rise.
You have missed my point about 82% being low. It is of course an overwhelming majority but I understood it to be in answer to the question “Do you think that Ukraine should be an independent country?”
In most countries the reply to such a question would be near to 99%. Or do you think that in Australia the reply would be less than that? A figure as low as 82% suggests a serious minority problem.Thanks for the figures on those who support negotiations with Russia. Seeing that it is dangerous to hold this view and that no politician dares express it for fear of being arrested and charged with being “pro-Russian” (with good reason: opposition MPs who put this view have been kicked out of parliament, their parties banned and their leaders arrested) I would have thought that it is surprisingly high. One in 4 in the country as a whole, rising to 1 in 3 in the east and to nearly 2 in 5 in the south.
I think you are probably right that the higher figures reflect the greater number of native Russian-speakers there but they could also reflect that this is where most of the shelling from both sides and destruction is going on and that people there just want it to stop. An expression of ordinary people’s abhorrence of war but bad news for war-mongers like yourself.
You have missed my point about 82% being low. It is of course an overwhelming majority but I understood it to be in answer to the question “Do you think that Ukraine should be an independent country?”
In most countries the reply to such a question would be near to 99%.Let’s ask a slightly different question. “Do you think that your homeland (i.e. where you were born and bred) should resist invasion by another country?”
In most countries the reply to such a question would be near to 99%.
A figure as low as 82% suggests a serious minority problem.
That statement, perhaps unwittingly, has devastating ramifications for the socialist revolution. The SPGB talks about a majority needing to understand and implement it. But if a figure of 99% or even 82% is required to bring it about and avoid a serious minority problem then you really are residing in the realms of cloud cuckoo land.
“That statement, perhaps unwittingly, has devastating ramifications for the socialist revolution. The SPGB talks about a majority needing to understand and implement it. But if a figure of 99% or even 82% is required to bring it about and avoid a serious minority problem then you really are residing in the realms of cloud cuckoo land.”
………………………………….I don’t think so at all. Ideas don’t spread in the fashion you think you do. If 82% of the population were 100% committed to socialism that would suggest that most of the remaining 18% would be at least sympathetic to socialism. Why should that be a problem? It is inconceivable that the growth of the socialist movement would not also at the same time, alter the general social climate of opinion in a direction that favoured its further growth.
By the time we numbered even 25% of the population, I suggest that at least a further 50% would probably be “semi-socialist” in outlook. Certainly, it would be virtually impossible for capitalist governments by then to get away with waging stupid wars like the one currently being waged in Ukraine. By then there would already be a sea change in society´s value system which governments have to adapt to maintain legitimacy
“your homeland (i.e. where you were born and bred)”
So our bland conservative is also an ethnic nationalist. Guess that shouldn’t be too much of a surprise.
I don’t think so at all. Ideas don’t spread in the fashion you think you do. If 82% of the population were 100% committed to socialism that would suggest that most of the remaining 18% would be at least sympathetic to socialism. Why should that be a problem? It is inconceivable that the growth of the socialist movement would not also at the same time, alter the general social climate of opinion in a direction that favoured its further growth.
I saw what you did there, Robbo, and I hope others will too.
A cheap debating trick which is all you really have to offer.
So, it seems SMER has topped the poll in Slovakia : there remain questions as to whether they will be able to form a coalition. It’s also questionable as to what effect their withdrawing from assistance to Urkaine will have, I don’t think they make natural allies with Orban’s Hungary (and no Hungarian party made it into the Slovak Parliament), but they may well pull together on this issue. Next stop, Poland, in two week’s time.
1. The general topic of each forum is given by the posted forum description. Do not start a thread in a forum unless it matches the given topic, and do not derail existing threads with off-topic posts.
This is a thread for discussing the Ukraine/Russian war, if people want to discuss voting for socialism, please start a new thread. I will move any further posts on that topic.
The military-industrial complex and Ukraine
The Mad Propaganda Push To Normalize War Profiteering In Ukraine
Proxy wars have existed since the time of the Cold War, and the USA has had several of them, and it is more convenient for them because they do not have to confront directly a big enemy, or any enemy with atomic weapons, they do not have to use too many resources, and the dead soldiers are from other countries, they do not have to use their own soldiers, and they do not have too workers protests, and family protesting for the death of their relatives, they have had proxy war in Central America, ( they used drugs to finance the war and to violate a federal law ) Asia, and Africa they do not have to ask permission to the US Congress, and they can use all kind of puppets and they can remove them any time that they want. The armament industry produce large profits and they never want to end any war, or the contrary, they want to continue the proxy wars. All wars are fought for economic reasons and it does not make any difference what they label the use for any war, and the left wingers can call it whatever they want, and it is still a capitalist war. Ukraine war is a proxy war, and Zelensky is a puppet of the USA/NATO. The Soviet Union used the cuban army for their proxy wars in Africa
Bad news for the warmongers – at least those on the side of NATO and its puppet state – loved by patriotic liberals everywhere
Hopefully, the same development will be occurring in Russia and its backer regimes. Then finally we can look to an end to this stupid pointless barbaric war
Zelensky loses favor in Washington. The Republicans leaders are becoming part of the ‘anti-war” movement, but is only a political game like their counterpart the democrats leaders, both are warmongers, as wells some organizations from the left and the so called Marxist Leninist movement are warmongers too, and they support both side of the conflict. Genuine socialist do not support wars, we do not support the killing among workers, only capitalists, pro capitalists and Leninists support wars
A long article on how the Western narrative on what is happening in Ukraine has been steadily losing credibility. War fatigue is setting in, to the frustration of the warmongers, and public opinion has moved towards stopping further military aid to the Zelensky regime
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