Russian Tensions
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I cannot understand the mentality of those who want to drag it out any longer just so they can stick some tacky piece of cloth on a flagpole somewhere.
Of course you can’t, with your overly simplistic world view.
Yet every time a kindergarten, school or hospital is bombed; every time atrocious war crimes, rapes and hideous acts of torture are uncovered; every time a family weeps over the grave of a loved one, the obligation to resist such barbarism is reinforced.
“the obligation to resist such barbarism is reinforced.”
Is that the barbarism of the Russians or the Barbarism of the Ukrainians, is it the Nazi barbarism or the barbarism of Dresden, Hiroshima and the Bengal famine.
One of the biggest barbaric act was committed against the American natives and the africans, and it has continued for more than 500 years
Here are the rags at the end of a pole that Lizzie is prepared to die and kill for and, worse, urge others from afar to die and kill for:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Austrian_flags
The good soldier Svejk had other ideas. Hopefully there are some of the them in the Ukranian and Russian armed forces.
I liked the one for the Austrian navy, an armed tourist cruise ship on the Danube, to ward off attacks by Hungarian or Slovak cruise ships?
Fortunately, Austria is not and cannot be a member of NATO and so cannot supply arms to Ukraine to keep the killing and destruction going. Not that that need stop Lizzie or Paul Mason signing up as a mercenary to fight for the Ukrainian regime and plant its flag on the end of a pole on some bombed out village or town.
Of course you can’t, with your overly simplistic world view.
Yet every time a kindergarten, school or hospital is bombed; every time atrocious war crimes, rapes and hideous acts of torture are uncovered; every time a family weeps over the grave of a loved one, the obligation to resist such barbarism is reinforced.————————————–
So I take it then that you consider it perfectly justifiable even obligatory to continue this barbaric ridiculous war in order to avenge the “war crimes, rapes and hideous acts of torture”. Who do you have in mind to be the target of this revenge? Or, talking about simplistic worldviews, do you imagine one side is squeaky clean and the other side full of nasty war criminals?
War brutalizes everyone and here you are, warmongering and calling for revenge. It’s a bit pathetic don’t you think? What’s that gonna achieve? I tell you what it’s gonna achieve – yet more “war crimes, rapes and hideous acts of torture” and innocent civilians on both sides being killed in their sleep by missiles. And so it will go on and on – tit for tat, tat for tit until there is nothing left to fight over and nobody left to fight.
My comment was with reference the so-called Ukrainian counter-offensive which. four months in. has made very little impression on the front line but has already cost the regime thousands of lives It is fairly obvious that Ukraine stands no chance of achieving its goal of retaking Donbas and Crimea and may very well lose more territory if and when the expected Russian offensive starts up (again). That was the context in which I said: “I cannot understand the mentality of those who want to drag it out any longer just so they can stick some tacky piece of cloth on a flagpole somewhere”. It is stupid even from a capitalist standpoint let alone from a socialist standpoint. And it means throwing thousands of more lives into the meat grinder to achieve little or nothing.
And here you are suggesting such action is not only justified but obligatory FFS. I will assume you have suddenly taken leave of your senses and have not thought it through
I didn’t realise Lizzie45 was a pro-Ukrainian nationalist, I thought she was a buddy of that pro-Russian nationalist troll True Scotsman who used to frequent this forum. At any rate, she has now shown her true colours
“Slava Ukraini!” eh Lizzie45? No wonder she has been so belittling towards socialists of late…
I am stepping in here to moderate this heated discussion. So please help me here comrades. I think Lizzie made a perfectly valid point. So – in my judgment- anyone who personally insults her on this thread and that includes you robbo – will be deleted. Lizzie is deliberately provocative but we can live with her attitude without going nuclear, I hope. Please stop personal insults. Love and peace.
Moderation is when the messages are moderated before being published and it is up to the moderator to approve them or to reject them and we do not have that type of feature in this forum.
The reality is that we do not support the killing of our fellow workers and we do not instigate the murders of any member of the working class.
“Slava Ukraini” has an unsavoury history. During the last world war in Nazi-conquered Poland (which then included western Ukraine) the Ukrainian nationalists were allowed some freedom. When they shouted this slogan they raised their outstretched right hand above their shoulder. No doubt it was what they shouted when they massacred Poles and Jews.
It is better translated as “Gory to Ukraine” which it has only ever brought.
“The reality is that we do not support the killing of our fellow workers and we do not instigate the murders of any member of the working class.”
Exactly. I don’t see what the issue is Paula. Anyone who supports that and the cause of nationalism should be vigorously opposed. You´ve opposed this stupid barbaric war in no less vigorous terms and good on you
“Workers Power”, the Trotskyist group that Paul Mason was once in, and him have both pursued the same trajectory. Both have entered the Labour Party and both support the Ukraine state in its war with the Russian state.
Here’s the position of the League for a Fifth (or should that be the Fiftieth?) International:
“ … Russia, under its autocratic leader, Vladimir Putin, is clearly the aggressor and the Ukrainians, who rallied in huge numbers to the defence of their country, have every right to fight back and drive the invader from their country … “
https://fifthinternational.org/content/first-year-ukraine-war
It’s a validly expressed point but certainly not a valid point.
Incidentally, Mason has apparently been having difficulty in getting selected as a Labour candidate. Could it be that he once wrote a book called Postcapitalism and that the Labour leadership don’t want to risk a candidate who envisages going beyond capitalism, both because they are afraid the Tories might use it as a stick against them and because they don’t want to go beyond capitalism?
Wrong on all counts, suckers… 🙂
But thanks anyway for revealing your true colors
_______________________________Lizzie45
I don’t think so
I don’t think we have been wrong on ANY counts
I´m proud to have “revealed” my true colours which is vehement opposition to toxic nationalism and the criminal insanity of capitalism´s wars. Something you are clearly not concerned with….
Incidentally, Mason has apparently been having difficulty in getting selected as a Labour candidate.
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Mason is such a disappointment and has sunk in my estimation. Like people in the Ukraine Solidarity Campaign, he takes this rather moronic view that anyone who opposes the continuation of the war in Ukraine must ipso facto be a Russian stooge It does not matter how many times you tell people like that that one is just as much opposed to the Putin regime as one is to the Zelensky regime, it makes no difference. They still come out with this same dumb response.
Yes, the best immediate thing that could happen from a working class point of view, is a ceasefire to stop the killings, maimings and destruction of homes and infrastructure. Ok, that would freeze the situation as the existing “line of contact” but at least workers whichever side of it they find themselves on will stop being killed — the absolute priority from a working class point of view. It won’t solve any other working class problem but at least it would stop that. The is no justification for any other position and those who urge the fighting to continue are, as you say, to be condemned in the strongest possible terms.
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