Russian Tensions
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Unfortunately TN still sees war as a comic strip of heroes and villans, rather than being the product of a historical process.
The fact that his grandparents took part in the 2nd World War, is not really such a great surprise.
My Dad was in the war as were three of my uncles and my father in law. My Uncle Joe was at the last day of Dunkirk, the first day of D Day and was also at Arnhem and my father died later in life because of the events of his time in the RAF. Sadly it wasn’t the great heroic episode portrayed by The History Channel or Discovery Channel that TN obviously uses as his source of historic fact.
These people never got over the experience of what they saw, for many of them it was only very late in life that they could start to talk about the horror and the fear.
The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of those involved in the War in Europe (and very probably TN’s Grandparents) were not either fighting for the Nazis or fighting against them. The vast majority on both sides were fighting because they had to, as conscripts.
TN’s idea that the German was some kind of solid block of Nazi support is risible. The November German General Election had Nazi support at 33% of an 80% turn out, so 26% of the German population voted for the Nazis, whereas the SDP and the KDP had received 37% of the votes in that election. Did over 13 million people transform into Nazis in just 6 years? The history of the German anti Nazi resistance is not well known, but it was substantial.
TN’s comic book history sees the German people (and the Ukrainian People now) as “Nazis to be turned into fertilizer” the reality is very different, however the only winners in this exercise is a members of the capitialists class who happen to be on the winning side.
The surviving workers who risked their lives in this current conflict will however only get a couple of bonny ribbon, a nice parade and if they’re lucky a couple of cheap medals.
My father was seeking his way and hadn’t yet found the SPGB as WW2 was ending. In the Communist Party he naively joined up in the RAF, seduced by Stalin’s propaganda. An air-gunner, he was ordered to gun down fleeing civilians and it lived with him for the rest of his life. Switching to reconnaissance, he witnessed a co-pilot shot through the head. At home on leave he was desperately motioning machine gunning in his sleep. Disgusted and damaged he told the Communist Party to shove it and joined the SPGB in 1948.
“TN’s idea that the German was some kind of solid block of Nazi support is risible.”
What’s your point? Cos not all Germans were Nazis what? They shouldn’t have been met militarily and defeated on the battlefield? You’d employ teenage urges to stop the Nazi death machine from rolling across the world? Thank the Gods that you fools weren’t in charge back in the day. You’d have counseled jumping into the sea rather than shooting at a Nazi “worker”. Lol. And the Russians are leading the charge against right wing extremism yet again. Putting an end to another fascist death cult. Bakhmut has almost fallen which spells the beginning of the end for Banderastan. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
“And the Russians are leading the charge against right-wing extremism yet again. Putting an end to another fascist death cult.”
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lol lol lol
The Putin regime is a prime example of Right-wing authoritarian capitalism. Its leadership draws its ideological inspiration from the scribblings of a bona fide “Christian fascist”. The Russian side (like the Ukrainian side) includes out-and-out fascists. Given the marked similarities between both regimes if Ukraine is fascist then so too is Russia.
Game set and match, clown….
Once again for the benefit of our resident clown, TS, here´s where the capitalist authoritarian president of Russia comes from ideologically speaking
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/26/how-fascist-are-putins-views
What’s your point? Cos not all Germans were Nazis what? They shouldn’t have been met militarily and defeated on the battlefield? You’d employ teenage urges to stop the Nazi death machine from rolling across the world? Thank the Gods that you fools weren’t in charge back in the day. You’d have counseled jumping into the sea rather than shooting at a Nazi “worker”
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The stupidity of this guy knows no limits…
Socialists don’t propose to be “in charge” anyway but assuming TS means by that a situation where we would be a truly mass movement – what would happen then? What would happen then is that capitalist states would find it virtually impossible to wage war anywhere. See, socialist ideas come as a package of ideas (and values). One of these ideas is our fervent opposition to the putrid and malevolent ideology of nationalism. The relationship between nationalist ideas and socialist ideas is an inverse one. One can only grow at the expense of the other. Fascism is only ultra-nationalism. It too will weaken and die along with ordinary nationalism as the workers’ movement grows
Apart from that, you don’t kill an idea by killing those who espouse it. Ideas arise from certain historical and material conditions. In TS´s muddled brain, the current war being waged by the far-right ultra-nationalist Putin regime is a war against “fascism”. He is feebly trying to justify the Putin regime’s pretext for invading Ukraine on the grounds that this is the only way you can defeat fascism.
But hold on – how come if fascism was defeated in WW2 that we are once again confronted with the spectre of fascism in the guise of the Ukraine regime not to mention NATO itself? So defeating the Nazis in WW2 did NOT destroy fascism at all, did it?
TS is effectively admitting that his whole strategy for defeating fascism – that is by “turning fascists into fertiliser” – is foredoomed to failure.
Little wonder nobody takes this idiot seriously here. His only value is to provide entertainment (and I must concede that he is indeed a most entertaining clown)
But those who follow are not analytical, so we can’t expect him to learn. He is a nationalist zealot.
“Socialists don’t propose to be “in charge” anyway”
Lol. Thankfully most socialists in the world actually want to implement their ideas and understand seizing power us the only way to do so. Anyway dumb as, show me the law of the the universe where socialists don’t “propose to be in charge”.
“but assuming TS means by that a situation where we would be a truly mass movement – what would happen then?”
We already know because it’s already happened. You get fascist counter-revolution.
“What would happen then is that capitalist states would find it virtually impossible to wage war anywhere.”
You are God level stupid. No, what happens is your socialist experiment is attacked by those capitalist states. You either organise a military response to the capitalists’ agression or you drown in a river of blood.
“See, socialist ideas come as a package of ideas (and values). One of these ideas is our fervent opposition to the putrid and malevolent ideology of nationalism.”
So if I want to use arms to defend my socialist society from capitalist aggression I’m a nationalist?
“The relationship between nationalist ideas and socialist ideas is an inverse one. One can only grow at the expense of the other.”
We live in a world if nation states. That is reality. At this point in history there is no other means to defend oneself against the predations of other nation states. You are so confused in your naval gazing you believe that just having a state is antithetical to socialism. It isn’t. Bloviate all you want to the contrary, no one gives a shit.
“Fascism is only ultra-nationalism. It too will weaken and die along with ordinary nationalism as the workers’ movement grows”
Bullshit. Fascism grows in direct proportion to socialism. It is its antithesis.
“Apart from that, you don’t kill an idea by killing those who espouse it.”
Actually, you do.
“Ideas arise from certain historical and material conditions. In TS´s muddled brain, the current war being waged by the far-right ultra-nationalist Putin regime is a war against “fascism”.”
Lol. The Russian state is not fascist.
“He is feebly trying to justify the Putin regime’s pretext for invading Ukraine on the grounds that this is the only way you can defeat fascism.”
No, you are feebly trying to make a case Russia’s war is aggression. Most of the world disagrees with you.
“But hold on – how come if fascism was defeated in WW2 that we are once again confronted with the spectre of fascism in the guise of the Ukraine regime not to mention NATO itself? So defeating the Nazis in WW2 did NOT destroy fascism at all, did it?”
It defeated German fascism.
“TS is effectively admitting that his whole strategy for defeating fascism – that is by “turning fascists into fertiliser” – is foredoomed to failure.”
It’s succeeding spectacularly in Ukraine.
“Little wonder nobody takes this idiot seriously here.”
100 years 300 nembers. Obviously no one takes the SPGB seriously.
“His only value is to provide entertainment (and I must concede that he is indeed a most entertaining clown)”
Oh, that cuts deep. I’m crying in to my pillow.
Here’s one for a new edition of The Good Soldier Schweik:
“Ukrainian pilot whose plane crashed in Russia facing charges
The charge is based on Article 322.1 of the Russian Criminal Code (crossing the Russian border without valid documents for entry or exit)
MOSCOW, April 7. /TASS/. A Ukrainian pilot who was detained after his plane crashed in Russia’s Bryansk Region has been charged with illegally crossing the border, an official at the Bryansk Regional Court told TASS on Friday.”Lol. Thankfully most socialists in the world actually want to implement their ideas and understand seizing power us the only way to do so. Anyway dumb as, show me the law of the universe where socialists don’t “propose to be in charge”.
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You know very well what that means. Or perhaps you don’t, on second thoughts. It means forming a “socialist government”. For socialists, this is an oxymoron. Of course, we want to implement socialism, you fool. But that is not the same thing as wanting to form a government. Jeez. how long have you been on this website? Have you not read anything about what we stand for? The state is a class institution and it disappears along with class ownership in a socialist society
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“We already know because it’s already happened. You get fascist counter-revolution”
—————————-So then enlighten us. Where has a grassroots mass movement “happened” seeking to bring about a moneyless wageless classless and stateless alternative to capitalism – socialism – eh? Because without such evidence you are just pissing in the wind. Of course, we all know what you mean by “socialism”. You are talking about state-run capitalism or maybe also what the Nazis called “socialism”. I am not sure which is these models you prefer but its got nothing to do with what actual socialists advocate
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“No, what happens is your socialist experiment is attacked by those capitalist states. You either organise a military response to the capitalists’ agression or you drown in a river of blood
————————————————–Rubbish. Do you seriously imagine you can have “socialism in one country” or that spread of socialist ideas could be contained within the borders of one country? Socialism is global in the same way that capitalism is. Other capitalist states will afflicted with the very same problem that afflicts the capitalist state you currently live under. A growing socialist movement represents a growing opposition to nationalism and capitalism´s wars that will make it increasingly difficult for capitalist states to wage war anywhere.
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So if I want to use arms to defend my socialist society from capitalist aggression I’m a nationalist?
—————————————Jeezus . Unbelievable. You are a self-declared zealot for nationalism and now you are seemingly protesting against the idea of being labelled as such for some odd reason. You are certainly not a socialist and your notion of a socialist society is in fact a (state) capitalist society. Nationalism and the nation-state are the historical products of capitalism and will disappear with the establishment of a socialist society which can only be a global society. Socialists dont defend something calls a nation state
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“Lol. The Russian state is not fascist.”
———————————-If the Russian state is not fascist then neither is Ukraine given that both are pretty much the same in character. There are fascists fighting for Ukraine but there are also fascists fighting for Russia. Ergo this is not a way “against fascism”. Putin is just an opportunist who needs to drum up a pretext to wage a war and what better way to do that than present it as some kind of noble enterprise directed against the threat of fascism? Useful idiots like yourself uncritically regurgitate this bilge without question. This war is a war of rival capitalist interests and words like fascism are just ideologically-charged ways of inducing the populace into support their local capitalists. The Ukraine state does it too. It argues that Ukrainian workers need to support the resistance against the threat of Russian fascism. Many Ukrainians see Russia as a fascist state and I have been on several forums where such an opinion is widely held
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No, you are feebly trying to make a case Russia’s war is aggression. Most of the world disagrees with you.
——————-Socialists dont support either side in this capitalist war. It takes two to tango. Russia invaded Ukraine, in this case, not the other way round. That is aggression however you want to dress it up. But then Ukraine is not blameless either nor for that is NATO and the West.
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It defeated German fascism.
——————–Yes but it didn’t defeat or eliminate fascist ideology per se did it? That´s the whole point that you blissfully ignore. You claimed that fascism could be defeated by military means which is a load of bollocks and must be by your very own logic since according to you, Ukraine and NATOSTAN today are fascists. Once again – you cannot kill an idea by killing those who espouse it. Ideas spring from historical circumstances. Fascism is the expression of ultra-nationalism. If you want to kill off fascism choke it off by attacking the putrid ideology of nationalism that fascism feed off
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It’s succeeding spectacularly in Ukraine.
—————————–LOL LOL LOL. Even from the standpoint of your own dumb logic, this makes no sense. For it to make sense in your terms would require Russian imperialism to successfully conquer and annex the whole of Ukraine. That’s not gonna happen, sunshine. (How long has the fighting been going on in Bakhmut BTW?) In the meanwhile can you imagine the depth of hatred towards all things Russian that is building up in Ukraine? If anything Putin´s stupid blunder is feeding the growth of “fascism” not eliminating it. He is no better than the Western imperialists who helped to orchestrate the Maidan takeover
The sooner this stupid war ends the better
“It means forming a “socialist government”. For socialists, this is an oxymoron.”
You’re not a socialist and don’t speak for them. You’re a juvenile, pure as driven snowflake naval gazer and mutual masturbation society wastrel.
“Of course, we want to implement socialism, you fool.”
No, you don’t. You just want to snipe from the sidelines as real socialists get on with the hard work of implementing their ideas in the real world.
“But that is not the same thing as wanting to form a government.”
You know nothing and have achieved nothing. 300 members after a century of disrespecting socialists. Your pathetic record speaks for itself.
“Have you not read anything about what we stand for?”
You stand for nothing. And if your ridiculous ideas were ever implemented you’d die on your knees as the fascist reactionaries of the world delivered a bullet in to your smooth brain.
“The state is a class institution and it disappears along with class ownership in a socialist society”
The working class state is the only thing that can defend the working class from a capitalist state. The fact you are so brain dead as to not understand this is 97% of the reason that your “party” is an irrelevant side note of a joke.
“So then enlighten us. Where has a grassroots mass movement “happened” seeking to bring about a moneyless wageless classless and stateless alternative to capitalism – socialism – eh?”
In only about half the countries of the world. Lol
“Because without such evidence you are just pissing in the wind. Of course, we all know what you mean by “socialism”. You are talking about state-run capitalism”
Nope, that’s what reactionary, juvenile cosplaying Anarchists describe socialism as. Funny how their “model” has never worked anywhere ever. And never will.
“I am not sure which is these models you prefer but its got nothing to do with what actual socialists advocate”
Now who’s the one true Scotsman? Lol. You may be that. What you ain’t is a socialist.
“Rubbish. Do you seriously imagine you can have “socialism in one country” or that spread of socialist ideas could be contained within the borders of one country? Socialism is global in the same way that capitalism is. Other capitalist states will afflicted with the very same problem that afflicts the capitalist state you currently live under. A growing socialist movement represents a growing opposition to nationalism and capitalism´s wars that will make it increasingly difficult for capitalist states to wage war anywhere.”
Only if you ignore all modern history can you make a statement so divorced from reality. You really are a bunch of clowns.
“Jeezus . Unbelievable. You are a self-declared zealot for nationalism and now you are seemingly protesting against the idea of being labelled as such for some odd reason.”
Erm, no. The only zealot here is you. You’re an anti-socialist zealot.
“You are certainly not a socialist and your notion of a socialist society is in fact a (state) capitalist society.”
Yours is one made out of fairy dust, toddlers spittle and teenage urges. One that has not and never will see the light of day. Thank the Gods.
“Nationalism and the nation-state are the historical products of capitalism and will disappear with the establishment of a socialist society which can only be a global society.”
That you think will organise itself spontaneously without concerted and bloodthirsty opposition. Child, go play on the swing set. The adults are talking.
“Socialists dont defend something calls a nation state”
They do. Because without them the capitalists are assured victory. But you won’t mind because you’ll be dead with a fascist jackboot wearing what remains of your brains on it’s sole.
“If the Russian state is not fascist then neither is Ukraine given that both are pretty much the same in character.”
Except they’re not. In the fevered imagining of a Guardian Bro maybe. In the real world…Erm, no.
“There are fascists fighting for Ukraine but there are also fascists fighting for Russia.”
The Ukrainian state is literally fascist. The Russian state is not. Blather all you like otherwise, only neo-con morons and the dupes who get their news from them give a shit.
“Ergo this is not a way “against fascism”.”
Garbage in garbage out.
“Putin is just an opportunist who needs to drum up a pretext to wage a war and what better way to do that than present it as some kind of noble enterprise directed against the threat of fascism?”
The Ukrainian fascism written about in countless MSM news articles before the war? Figments of my imagination are they? Moron.
“Useful idiots like yourself uncritically regurgitate this bilge without question.”
Lol. Having a reality based view of the world makes one a useful idiot? This phrase “useful idiot” I don’t think it means what you think it means.
“This war is a war of rival capitalist interests and words like fascism are just ideologically-charged ways of inducing the populace into support their local capitalists.”
The fact you actually believe the crap you’re pedaling is a whole PHD thesis of its own.
“The Ukraine state does it too. It argues that Ukrainian workers need to support the resistance against the threat of Russian fascism. Many Ukrainians see Russia as a fascist state and I have been on several forums where such an opinion is widely held”
Simple minds succumb to propaganda. You’re living proof of that fact.
“Socialists dont support either side in this capitalist war.”
This isn’t a capitalist war.
“It takes two to tango. Russia invaded Ukraine, in this case, not the other way round. That is aggression however you want to dress it up.”
No, Russia intervened in an ongoing civil war to put an end to fascist oppression.
“But then Ukraine is not blameless either nor for that is NATO and the West.”
About the only half reasonable thing you’ve ever written. Even a broken clock right?
“Yes but it didn’t defeat or eliminate fascist ideology per se did it?”
So what? The holocaust was ended along with the slaughter of WW2. You know, actual real world consequences?
“That´s the whole point that you blissfully ignore.”
Except for, you know, the actual real world consequences.
“You claimed that fascism could be defeated by military means which is a load of bollocks”
Erm, WW2, ended, no? Dullard.
“and must be by your very own logic since according to you, Ukraine and NATOSTAN today are fascists.”
Yep.
“Once again – you cannot kill an idea by killing those who espouse it.”
Actually, you can. But I’d be more than happy with a simple military defeat of the fascist army and the overthrow of the regime.
“Ideas spring from historical circumstances. Fascism is the expression of ultra-nationalism. If you want to kill off fascism choke it off by attacking the putrid ideology of nationalism that fascism feed off”
Meanwhile, in the real world, you have to stop the fascist artillery, infantry, airforce and navy.
“LOL LOL LOL. Even from the standpoint of your own dumb logic, this makes no sense. For it to make sense in your terms would require Russian imperialism to successfully conquer and annex the whole of Ukraine.”
Russia is not imperialist. But yes, the whole of Ukraine may need to be conquered. Russia had the means and will to do so.
“That’s not gonna happen, sunshine. (How long has the fighting been going on in Bakhmut BTW?)”
Oh, you’ve a crystal ball. Next week’s lotto numbers?
“In the meanwhile can you imagine the depth of hatred towards all things Russian that is building up in Ukraine?”
The Germans got over losing did they not?
“If anything Putin´s stupid blunder is feeding the growth of “fascism” not eliminating it.”
Fighting fascist oppression is never a blunder, it’s a duty.
“He is no better than the Western imperialists who helped to orchestrate the Maidan takeover”
Lol. Fighting against fascists is the same as installing them now is it? And up is down, black is white and the SPGB is a “party”. Lol
“The sooner this stupid war ends the better”
Fighting fascism is not stupid. Unless you want to be ruled over by fascists. Something you’ll never lift a finger to prevent. Joker.
I think I have encountered a more thoughtful and considered response from the most entrenched and dogmatic Jehovah Witness than I have from this joker, TS. There is no argument to sink your teeth into, just an endless stream of boring vitriol.
I liked the bit about “black and white” mind you. Because that exactly describes his simple-minded childish view of the world: Russia, Good; Ukraine, Bad. This is how capitalism perpetuates itself – by dividing the workers who are encouraged to imagine their enemies are fellow workers elsewhere, and then ruling over them.
I still don’t quite know what this individual is doing on this forum. He is, clearly, vehemently opposed to Marxian socialism even if he has little understanding of what that is about and no interest in finding out more. Does he imagine he is going to bring anyone here around to his disgusting sociopathic and hyper-nationalistic warmongering worldview? There is not a snowflake´s chance in hell of that happening. So why is he even bothered to engage with us? Very odd, that….
From the sounds of it, Bakhmut has fallen, I suppose the question now is can the remaining Ukrainian troops retreat in good order, or will many thousands be killed or captured. Of course, Ukraine still has many divisions in the theatre, and may be looking to counter attack north of the ruins.
The capacity for substantial counter attack is a big question, and of course, while Ukraine has been getting deliveries of armour, the Russians have been ramping up tank production themselves, and may be planning a massed tank assault.
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