Russian Tensions
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“We don’t of course know what’s behind the Russian state’s announcement that it is to withdraw its troops from Kherson which it regards as part of its territory.”
Actually, we do know because Russian general Surovikin said why.
“Keeping Russian troops on the west bank with their back to the river created a risk that, in the event of Ukraine launching a major attack accompanied by blowing damns up river, the soldiers would be trapped and forced to fight without a reliable line of communication.”
“You know as much about military strategy as you do about socialism. Ie, nothing”
Let us all just admit, no one on the forum is a military strategist.
No one on the forum possesses inside intelligence on the progress of the war.
No one on this forum can influence the conduct of the war or determine its course.
However, on the forum, there is one cheerleader who has chosen who he wants to win the war.
All others here don’t give a damn about which side is victorious.
Our view is that it is always the working class who pays the price of war and it is always the working class who loses in war.
We aren’t attempting to re-arrange the front-lines, to change the order of battle, to prepare for the next offensive.
This is not a war to end wars.
Only winning the class war can do that. And that is that war we are solely committed to.
“Let us all just admit, no one on the forum is a military strategist.”
That is true but it’s easily enough understood when explained. Unless one is trying to be wilfully ignorant as appears the case on this thread.
“No one on the forum possesses inside intelligence on the progress of the war.”
And no one claims to so your point is moot.
“No one on this forum can influence the conduct of the war or determine its course.”
Oh, I get it now. It’s “point out the bleeding obvious day” today at Socialist Posers Guardian Brahs.
“However, on the forum, there is one cheerleader who has chosen who he wants to win the war.
All others here don’t give a damn about which side is victorious.”
Which means you don’t care if Nazis win. Well, thankfully, most sane people in the world don’t share your view. Only the propaganda addled western publics of whom you’re all members.
“Our view is that it is always the working class who pays the price of war and it is always the working class who loses in war.”
That is true. But when you defeat Nazis you usually keep on living. Not necessarily so if the Nazis win.
“We aren’t attempting to re-arrange the front-lines, to change the order of battle, to prepare for the next offensive.”
No, we are merely spectators but the events are of historic importance. We are witnessing a realignment of the global geopolitical order.
“This is not a war to end wars.”
The defeat of US/European hegemony, of which this will be a major contribution, may well be a step in that direction.
“Only winning the class war can do that. And that is that war we are solely committed to.”
Lol, you’re not committed to doing anything. You couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery. What is SPGB doing right now to take advantage of the capitalist crisis we’re living through? I bet not one God damn thing.
“What is SPGB doing right now to take advantage of the capitalist crisis we’re living through? I bet not one God damn thing.”
Much too harsh, TS. The SPGB is engaging in the same abstract propaganda which they’ve been undertaking for 118 years. Please give credit where it’s due. 🙂
“Which means you don’t care if Nazis win…But when you defeat Nazis you usually keep on living. Not necessarily so if the Nazis win.”
You were previously asked how many Ukrainians were Fascists, Banderites and Nazis and failed to offer any answer.
Is it 10%, 20%, 30%, half, most, or all?
It would suit pro-Russians to think that every Ukrainian was a Nazi. It makes the justification of invasion and pretext for the war so much easier.
However, can I ask how you de-nazify if you don’t even know who are the nazis?
Whereas the reality of this war is that Ukrainians are fighting very much the same as Russians are, having been duped by indoctrination to be nationalists and identify with the state-nation that they accidentally were born in.
And what significance is “We are witnessing a realignment of the global geopolitical order.” to the working class.
A mere change of master, a different slave-driver.
“The defeat of US/European hegemony, of which this will be a major contribution, may well be a step in that direction.”
And another question you failed to respond to was the comparison made previously with the Vietnamese defeating American imperialists to be subsequently invaded by the Chinese. A political power vacuum is always very quickly filled by another aspiring expansionist imperialist power.
“What is SPGB doing right now to take advantage of the capitalist crisis we’re living through?”
One important act we are engaged in is repudiating the myth of nationalism that contributes to the cause of wars. We aren’t reinforcing the ideology of patriotism, and national loyalty or creating chauvinist stereotypes to dehumanise fellow workers by ascribing to a whole people, extremist politics that only a small number actually hold.
Basic education in cause and effect is not abstract, Lizzie.
But to reply to your own personal interest, rather than advocate token one-day marches, or even a consumer boycott, we have said that the only effective way to counter the cost of living crisis is through determined industrial action. Class action and not individualism.
But before we go off on a tangent, there is a separate topic to debate that question. This thread should remain focused on the Ukraine war (incidentally, is there any reasonable observer still using the euphemism ‘special military operation’ or has commonsense and reality finally prevailed)
If you seek to carry on, Lizzie, cut and paste my remark and put on the appropriate topic.
“Much too harsh, TS. The SPGB is engaging in the same abstract propaganda which they’ve been undertaking for 118 years. Please give credit where it’s due. 🙂”
Sorry, my bad! Credit where credit is due!
Which means you don’t care if Nazis win. Well, thankfully, most sane people in the world don’t share your view. Only the propaganda-addled western publics of whom you’re all members.
________________________________________________________________There are Nazis in Ukraine but that does not mean the people as a whole or the government as a whole are Nazis. You might equally call the Russian regime Nazi because there are de facto Nazis there even if they don’t call themselves that. After all, the Russian regime is remarkably similar to the Ukrainian regime in being thoroughly autocratic and anti-democratic, ultra-nationalist, and run in the interests of a tiny class of oligarchs
So once again tell us, True Stalinist – what percentage of the Ukrainian, army, government, and population are actual bona fide Nazis? Why do you keep evading this question??
Finally, it is rich of you to accuse socialists of being members of the “propaganda-addled western public” when you yourself rely on right-wing western conspiracy sites and Russian propaganda sites in your craven support for the capitalist Putin regime. Socialists draw information from a range of sites but our anti-nationalist message is certainly not compatible with the propaganda pumped out by these sites. In no way could accuse us of being pro-Ukraine for example since we have made it abundantly clear we oppose both regimes in this capitalist conflict. Unlike yours, our brains are not addled
Lol, you’re not committed to doing anything. You couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery. What is SPGB doing right now to take advantage of the capitalist crisis we’re living through? I bet not one God damn thing.
______________________________________________________________LOL And what are YOU doing to ..er…”take advantage of the capitalist crisis we’re living through”. What does that even mean? You and dyed-in-the-wool utopian reformists like Lizzie45 imagine that capitalism can be administered in the interests of workers and presumably that if you protest hard enough things will be significantly different and maybe even that the built-in capitalist trade cycle of boom and bust can be made to vanish with a wave of your magic wand. It is people like you that build up unsustainable illusions about capitalism that inevitably result in disillusionment apathy and despair. At least socialists are realists when it comes to capitalism
“You were previously asked how many Ukrainians were Fascists, Banderites and Nazis and failed to offer any answer.”
All-in with the imperialists, you are telling Pinocchios again. I said there were 100,000 fascist militiamen when the conflict with Russia began, about a third of Ukraine’s active military personnel. I also linked to an article explaining how fascists held key government posts including the highly influential education portfolio and infested the police and intelligence services. All left wing opposition parties in Ukraine are banned, all opposition media is banned. Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator, is the hero and father of the nation. He is glorified across Ukraine. I have linked to an article explaining this too.
“Is it 10%, 20%, 30%, half, most, or all?”
As I answered last time, the numbers aren’t important, their influence is. And they are highly influential. With the imprimatur of the state and no hesitation to use violence and murder, what they want they get. They control the school curriculum and are therefore raising an entire generation of little fascists.
“It would suit pro-Russians to think that every Ukrainian was a Nazi.”
Putin has never said that. In fact, quite the opposite. Russia’s beef is with the illegitimate coup regime in Kiev, not the Ukrainian people which is why most of the country’s infrastructure was spared until very recently.
“It makes the justification of invasion and pretext for the war so much easier.”
The conflict is justified. Fighting Nazis is always the right thing to do. It is something Russians don’t shy away from given that they killed 8 out of 10 Nazis during WW2.
“However, can I ask how you de-nazify if you don’t even know who are the nazis?”
Lol. You can start with the ones covered in swastika tattoos.
“Whereas the reality of this war is that Ukrainians are fighting very much the same as Russians are”
Wrong. Kiev is fighting to subjugate the east. Russia is fighting to liberate it.
“having been duped by indoctrination to be nationalists and identify with the state-nation that they accidentally were born in.”
Russians don’t need to be duped into fighting Nazis. They do it because it’s the right thing to do.
“And what significance is “We are witnessing a realignment of the global geopolitical order.” to the working class.”
They’ll be free of US/European imperialist tyranny. That’s kind of a big deal.
“A mere change of master, a different slave-driver.”
BS. The new world being birthed will be one
of international law and win-win economic development not the might makes right “rules based order”.“And another question you failed to respond to was the comparison made previously with the Vietnamese defeating American imperialists to be subsequently invaded by the Chinese.”
All-in with the deep state, another Pinocchio. The Chinese invaded Vietnam to prevent Vietnamese colonization of Cambodia.
“A political power vacuum is always very quickly filled by another aspiring expansionist imperialist power.”
After delivering its message to Vietnam China withdrew from all Vietnamese territory. I believe the conflict was only 4 weeks long. So again, All-in with the billionaires, you’re mistaken.
“One important act we are engaged in is repudiating the myth of nationalism that contributes to the cause of wars. We aren’t reinforcing the ideology of patriotism, and national loyalty or creating chauvinist stereotypes to dehumanise fellow workers by ascribing to a whole people, extremist politics that only a small number actually hold.”
Right, so as Lizzie said, nothing.
“But to reply to your own personal interest, rather than advocate token one-day marches, or even a consumer boycott, we have said that the only effective way to counter the cost of living crisis is through determined industrial action. Class action and not individualism.”
And what are you doing to make that happen. Apart from nothing?
“All-in with the deep state, another Pinocchio. The Chinese invaded Vietnam to prevent Vietnamese colonization of Cambodia.”
So you DO support the Khmer Rouge!
Chinese troops “made their point” by burning peasants’ homes. Some point! Just as Putin is “fighting Nazis” by bombing workers’ homes in Ukraine, killing old and young, regardless. Hey, are dogs and cats Nazis too? And old pensioners? And children?
So if Kim blasts off your arms and legs, “by accident”, if bombing Japan, it’ll be justified too, because Japan will be “getting what it deserves.” (Your words, TS).AJ – “ All others here don’t give a damn about which side is victorious.”
TS – “Which means you don’t care if Nazis win. Well, thankfully, most sane people in the world don’t share your view”
The irony is that TS uses the True Scotsman fallacy without even knowing he’s using it. 😂😂😂
The conflict is justified. Fighting Nazis is always the right thing to do. It is something Russians don’t shy away from given that they killed 8 out of 10 Nazis during WW2.
______________________________________________________BS The conflict has got nothing to do with fighting nazis. Our resident Putin bootlicker can’t seem to distinguish between the pretext for war, the excuses made by the warmongers for going to war, and the actual causes of war which are essentially economic in nature. The Putin capitalist regime couldn’t care two hoots about Ukraine’s conspicuous lack of democracy since it is a carbon of the latter in so many respects. If Ukraine is a Nazi regime then so too is Russia even if it doesn’t call itself that
To say True Stalinist’s arguments are pisspoor is an understatement. He claims that only a third of the Ukrainian military are fascists but it’s the influence of nazi ideology that matters, not the numbers. So what proportion of the Ukrainian population are Nazis in that case, eh, TS? Also, you might want to explain how raining down missiles on the Ukrainian population is going to somehow change them from being the Nazis you claim they are, into anti-Nazis or non-nazis.
If anything it’s going to have the opposite effect. The invasion of Ukraine by the Russian imperialist capitalist regime is going to solidify the forces of Nazism within Ukraine and these could well gain more influence thanks to Putin’s stupid blunder. If you want to encourage the growth of nazism riding on the back of a wave of delusional ultra-nationalism then you could not have done better than do what that idiot Putin has done
TS “ The conflict is justified. Fighting Nazis is always the right thing to do. It is something Russians don’t shy away from given that they killed 8 out of 10 Nazis during WW2.”
And presumably the Molotov Von Ribbentrop Pact was all about fighting Nazis. As was the export of massive amounts of raw materials to the Nazi regime was a way of weakening the Nazi regime.
Funny that Harry Pollit (after changing his line to fall in line with Stalin’s directives) and his CPGB propaganda sheet, The Daily Worker said that “fighting against the Nazis was playing into the hands of the class enemy”
You don’t need to worry about the authenticity of that, we have copies of it in our archive.
The CPGB also put forward the Stalin line that “a defeat of Britain by the Nazis would be in the interests of the British Working Classes”
It is a proven fact that your hero Stalin did not agree with your view that “fighting Nazis is ALWAYS the right thing to do”.
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