Russian Tensions
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Czech anarchists list 31 reasons NOT to die for Ukraine
[antimilitarismus] Anarchist antimilitarism and myths about the war in Ukraine
31 reasons only ? I think there are thousand of reasons why the working class should not die defending its own ruling class
“Every single claim in your long list is a lie propagated by the bourgeois press, academia and intelligence servcies. As you’re a Guardian Bro you are a credulous consumer of such untruths. You will wholeheartedly believe the most ridiculous claims made about socialists because you hate them. You only use Marxism to trash Marxists. Grover Furr does a great job debunking every one of the lies of the bourgeois press that you’ve just parroted”
_______________________________________________LOL This guy is living in a little bubble totally disconnected from reality. He bootlicks a repugnant authoritarian capitalist regime like the Putin regime and unquestioningly cites dodgy far-right conspiracy theory-based sources to back his ridiculous claims while mocking the sources of others. Then – fantasy of fantasies – he imagines himself to be some sort of Marxist or socialist. Ha! TS knows sod all about Marxism and socialism and scoffs at the Marxian concept of socialism (as do others like him on the far right) while advancing a completely idealist non-Marxist explanation of the war in Ukraine….
Never underestimate the power of ideology to beguile …
“What strains credulity is the claim that Russia’s annexation of Crimea has anything to do with resisting fascism.”
Crimea was never legally part of Ukraine and its inhabitants never wanted to be so. The government Crimeans had overwhelmingly voted for in Kiev was overthrown in a fascist coup. Neo-Nazis had already carried out pogroms in Odessa and were making their way to Crimea to hand out rough justice there also. Crimeans, cleverly, used the political crisis as a justification to do what they’d always wanted to do which was to agitate for annexation and return to Russia.
Despite the wishes of its people, if there had not been a fascist coup in Ukraine Crimea would still be a part of Ukraine. But the threat of fascist violence, the historically illegal annexation of the territory by Kiev and the threat of losing Sevastopol to a pro-NATO regime provoked Russia to action.
“Even before the annexation local militias were quite effective in keeping Ukrainian ultra-nationalists (and all other ‘Maidanites’) out of the peninsula. If there is a threat of ‘fascism’ in Crimea, it comes from Russian ultra-nationalists – like the men who dress up as Cossacks and whip opponents of the secessionist regime.”
Rubbish. Look at the polls now of how happy the residents of Crimea are to have returned to Russia. Nowhere are fascists parading around threatening people.
“I don’t think you bothered because from it I actually posted…”
No I didn’t bother because the facts are already known to me.
“Again to reiterate your and our big difference.
We say it makes no sense at all to die in a civil war between two equally nationalist bourgeois sides. Both sides are counter-revolutionary as we see it.”
No, Russia is revolutionary. It is acting to overturn the US/NATO hegemony encapsulated in the “rules based international order”, ie. The US/NATO make the rules and all others follow orders. Russia, by standing up to US/NATO aggression, is birthing a new multi-polar world that will be far more democratic and far less authoritarian. Yet you lot are all too dim to see because you’re ideological fanatics who actually support the status quo in all your missives.
“You have instead chosen to support Russian Tweedledee against Ukraine’s Tweedledum.”
No, I’ve chosen to support the side that is sticking its thumb in the eye of the global hegemon and providing space for all nations to pursue sovereignty and peaceful co-prosperity. You lot are all reactionaries who mimic Marxist speechifying only to sink a dagger into the backs of any socialist who ever gains power. You are pathetic, sniveling reactionaries one and all.
No, Russia is revolutionary. It is acting to overturn the US/NATO hegemony encapsulated in the “rules based international order”, ie. The US/NATO make the rules and all others follow orders. Russia, by standing up to US/NATO aggression, is birthing a new multi-polar world that will be far more democratic and far less authoritarian. Yet you lot are all too dim to see because you’re ideological fanatics who actually support the status quo in all your missives.
_________________________________________LOL LOL LOL. So supporting one disgusting authoritarian capitalist regime against another is …er…” revolutionary” and is going to somehow advance the cause of global democracy.
This guy gets more and more hilarious with every contribution he makes to this debate. Keep it up, TS. We could all do with a good chuckle in these gloomy times…
“LOL LOL LOL. So supporting one disgusting authoritarian capitalist regime against another is …er…” revolutionary” and is going to somehow advance the cause of global democracy.”
I don’t know what name one gives to the overthrow of centuries of US/European hegemony if not revolutionary. What would you call it?
“This guy gets more and more hilarious with every contribution he makes to this debate. Keep it up, TS. We could all do with a good chuckle in these gloomy times…”
This is what passes for debate on this thread? Robbo, the adults are talking. Run along child, the playground is over there.
“… providing space for all nations to pursue sovereignty and peaceful co-prosperity…”
Ahhhh…so that is why Russia invaded Ukraine, to ensure its sovereignty, bring it peace and secure its prosperity.
…just like God, Putin acts in mysterious ways…
Like it or not, the origins of the secession and the escalation to war ultimately can be found in two differing economic plans.
One was to seek a closer relationship with the European Union and its economy. The other was to maintain its connection with the Russian-oriented Eurasian Economic Community. The Ukrainian ruling class oligarchs were divided.
The EU option suited the agrarian interests of western Ukraine. The EAEC fitted better with the more industrial eastern part of the country.
The EU welcomed cheap labour from Eastern Europe and those Eastern European countries such as Poland looked to fill its subsequent labour shortage with even cheaper Ukrainians.
The language and cultural reasons for the war were, as I see it, justifications since they were not previously a serious problem. It was just a matter of the politicians creating division and strife. Foreign powers were not neutral nor honest-brokers.
“I don’t know what name one gives to the overthrow of centuries of US/European hegemony if not revolutionary. What would you call it?”
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A redistribution of power from one capitalist bloc to another. Hardly a revolution!
Capitalism is further entrenched by its gullible supporters such as yourself with your far-right Trumplike views in favour of a fascistic-cum-authoritarian type of capitalist oligarchy such as exists in Putin’s Russia. Spare me the bleatings of useful idiots in the service of capitalism such as yourself. You are the kind of cannon fodder that would willingly offer their bodies and minds to the cause of some capitalist nation – or, at least in your case from the comfort of your armchair. If you feel so passionately about the war aims of your beloved Putin whose boots you slavishly lick, why don’t you join your fellow far-right comrades and become a mercenary? Why not put your money where your mouth is? You think the Russian capitalist regime is worth supporting so why not go and support it?
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“This is what passes for debate on this thread? Robbo, the adults are talking. Run along child, the playground is over there.”
______________________________________________________________Says the kid whose only response to logical debate is sexual innuendo.
TS- “I don’t know what name one gives to the overthrow of centuries of US/European hegemony if not revolutionary. What would you call it?”
So the overthrow of one hegemonic empire by another imperialistic contender is “revolutionary”. By that logic the overthrown and destruction of the Byzantine Empire by the Ottoman Empire was “revolutionary” the overthrow of Ottoman Empire by the French and British Empire was revolutionary, the overthrow of the Aztec Empire by the Spanish Empire, etc. etc.
Viva the revolution, not.
TS ““… providing space for all nations to pursue sovereignty and peaceful co-prosperity…”
And was that not the same line given by the US/UK invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, the same line given by every excuse for capitalism’s wars, the same excuse given by the Nazis for their imperial expansion, etc. If you are going to fall for that one, you really are in trouble.
“Ahhhh…so that is why Russia invaded Ukraine, to ensure its sovereignty, bring it peace and secure its prosperity.”
Ukraine was invaded because it was on the threshold of its own invasion of Donbas and was a NATO stalking horse threatening to develop nuclear weapons. As Zelensky has also promised to take back Donbass and Crimea, this would mean nuclear war.
Ukrainian President Says They Will Get Nuclear Weapons Unless US Protects Them
https://thehill.com/policy/international/3704092-zelensky-we-will-definitely-liberate-crimea/
“So the overthrow of one hegemonic empire by another imperialistic contender is “revolutionary”.
Russia is not imperialist. It does not intend to rule the world. The only people who believe otherwise are smooth brained Guardian bros.
” you are going to fall for that one, you really are in trouble.”
Russia stands for the rule of international law through the United Nations. The US/NATOstan stands for the “rules based international order”, ie US global hegemony. The difference is profound. Smooth brained Guardian bros are such dupes they can’t see the forest for the trees.
“Russia is not imperialist. It does not intend to rule the world. The only people who believe otherwise are smooth brained Guardian bros.”
——————————Other imperialist powers like the US similarly say they do not intend to rule the world and support the sovereign rights of nations to exist as independent entities. Only smooth-brained users of right-wing conspiracy theory sites believe capitalist Russia is any different
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