Russian Tensions
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“And the Bolshevik states were also fascist, no less fascist than Germany, Italy and Spain.”
[Moderator deleted offensive quote from True Scotsman]
TS – No similarities then? Bolshevik authoritarianism, militarism, imperialism, leader cult, hatred of democracy, state dominance in every sphere of life both private and public, nationalism, ruling elites, wage slavery, continual sloganizing propaganda, racism, no free speech or press, politicized courts, concentration camps (gulags), etc. etc. I suppose if you were ever to open your eyes to historical and political reality rather than ideological slogans your whole world would disappear into ashes.
[moderator deleted offensive quote from True Scotsman]
Message to Alan Johnston
Alan, I know that at times I push the boundaries of moderation, etc. However as a socialist organisation I really think that we cannot put up with True Scotsman’s continual use of discriminatory language regarding people with intellectual disabilities.
He uses terms like retard and retarded and other offensive and oppressive terms about disability on a regular basis. If he was using the equivalent oppressive style racist language we would be outraged.
People with intellectual disabilities have a long history of oppression and discrimination. The Nazis (who TS hypocritically claims to oppose) instituted the murderous Operation T4 where an estimated 300,000 people with disability were killed. Sweden, the UK and the US had a long history of forcible sterilisation and involuntary incarceration in long term institutions.
For these types of terms to be used continually on a SPGB forum, without moderation and without protest, is to my mind unacceptable.Moderator Notice
Bijou Drain, your complaint has been acted upon.
However, repeating True Scotsman’s offensive language meant I had to edit out your and another poster’s quote.
True Scotsman, please take note of Bijou Drain’s comments.
In your reply to me you concentrate upon Crimea. I believe I added a caveat to my post suggesting it was the exception.
I also included the very important qualification that political events would switch people’s political opinion.
Did the SPGB ever deny the right-wing influences. No.
What we said in 2014
The political situation is seen as very fluid and involved a complex combination of ideologies all vying for influence and power.
“…Russian talk about a ‘fascist coup’ does have some basis in reality. The ‘Maidan’ movement may well have started as a peaceful protest of citizens against the corrupt and oppressive government of President Yanukovych, but it was the violent clashes between police and armed insurgents that finally brought that government down. And it was semi-fascist groups of Ukrainian ultra-nationalists – in particular, the Right Sector led by Dmytro Yarosh – who played the leading role in the insurgency and were rewarded with posts in the new government.
What strains credulity is the claim that Russia’s annexation of Crimea has anything to do with resisting fascism. Even before the annexation local militias were quite effective in keeping Ukrainian ultra-nationalists (and all other ‘Maidanites’) out of the peninsula. If there is a threat of ‘fascism’ in Crimea, it comes from Russian ultra-nationalists – like the men who dress up as Cossacks and whip opponents of the secessionist regime. Such people are also active in the current protests in the cities of Eastern Ukraine against the new ‘Orange’ government. For example, Pavel Gubarev, a leader of the pro-Russian protests in Donetsk, is a former member of the fascist organisation Russian National Unity…”
I have also already suggested a look at our previous thread on the Euromaidan protests and the right-wing threat was not far from our analysis.
I don’t think you bothered because from it I actually posted.
“…Kiev’s parliament is voting on Thursday to establish a National Guard of 20,000 people – recruited from activists involved in the recent pro-Western protests as well as from military academies – to strengthen Ukraine’s defences. Ukraine’s national security chief Andriy Parubiy said the Guard would be deployed to “protect state borders, general security and prevent “terrorist activities”. Reading the above report i foresee that the neo-nazi nationalists will now be legitimised and given weapons. to reinforce their influence against any liberal elements. Official Brownshirts. We now await the SS to be established…”
Again to reiterate your and our big difference.
We say it makes no sense at all to die in a civil war between two equally nationalist bourgeois sides. Both sides are counter-revolutionary as we see it.
You have instead chosen to support Russian Tweedledee against Ukraine’s Tweedledum.
I do not think the bolsheviks had the elements to be called fascists. We have written several articles and we had done several book reviews defining what fascism was, therefore, we should throw away all the articles written about the subject. The bolsheviks did not qualify to call themselves anti-fascists because they supported the dictatorship of one party. I think there is no fascism and there are no fascists, it was a form adopted by capitalism in Germany and Italy. I do not think that Donald Trump, Bolsonaro, and his followers are not fascists or nazis, most of them do not know what fascism was
You are just wasting your time, and forgetting about other world issues that are taking place around the world at present, we are becoming mono-thematic and eurocentric. You are not going to convince him, and he is not going to convince you, it is just a ping-pong game, therefore, you should not follow his video game, let him cook in his own sauce.
He is not a Stalinist or a Leninist, he is just a Russian agent, he will defend the interests of Russian capitalism in the same manner that a CIA agent will defend the interest of US capitalism, that is the reason why you do not see his posts on weekend. In the past, there were many Stalinist/Leninist organizations that had matured theoreticians
Many of you have been in the world of politics for many years and you should have learned the lessons. In the past, we had public discussions with Nazis and we had political principles discussions and the Nazis comported themselves in a much better way than the so-called anti-fascists who are not anti-fascists either.
I know the new moderator has his own management style, but I think Matt made the correct decision when he finished the thread on Hong Kong, the time wasted here can be used to write articles, we should have had a Podcast like the WSWS where they read they own articles on the internet, we are going to cook ourselves in our own sauce too
True. It’s a waste of our time. We should ignore him and scroll past his comments so as not to be angered into responding.
So in what way were Soviet Russia and China not fascist?
If you want to be super strict about it, only Italy was fascist and not Germany, because only Italy called itself Fascist.
Otherwise, I don’t see how Russia and China were not.
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/2729119-fascism
What was Fascism?Fascism was an extreme form that nationalism adopted in Italy and Germany, for specific reasons, given the historical particularity of those capitalist states, which occurred during the twentieth century between two world wars. Fascism originated in Italy in 19119 when Mussolini established the “fascist di combatitimento”, named after the military units of the Roman Empire. Later the word was used to something similar to the extreme nationalist movement in Germany, although they described themselves as socialist-nationalists (Nazis) rather than Fascists. Both movements gained control of political and no less constitutional power, in Italy in 1922 and in Germany in 1933, and proceeded to establish the dictatorship of the single party with mass organizations to unite the population and preach that all members of a nation have common interests. Fascism/Nazism was implacably opposed by socialism because the latter itself advocates internationalism and advocates class struggle within nationsAnalyzing this new phenomenon, which represents political retrogression compared to how Marx and Marxists until World War I had seen the developments of things (political democracy then socialism) was a challenge to those who called themselves Marxists. How they met this challenge is how Renton’s book describes this situation. Well written and easy to understand, but suffers from the flaws of its author because he is a member of the World Socialist Party (of Trotskyist origin), who sees Trotsky as a brilliant political thinker. But, Trotsky was disqualified as a useful character to contribute to the debate on Fascism, although he was not a racist, he favored the dictatorship of the single party. The SWP campaigns against the fascist groups that exist today as one of its priorities, ut because Fascism is an extreme form of the development of nationalism they should also advocate a campaign in But they do not do this, they support the so-called right of nations for self-determination, a doctrine which accepts the myth of nations, which provides ideological ammunition to justify the ethnic cleansing of members of other nations living on the territory of one nation.
Analysis of Renton’s book made by the Socialist Party of Great Britain
‘You are just wasting your time’
MS – We may be wasting our time with TrueScotsman but someone reading the debate who might hold similar views may be persuaded by our arguments. As for the anachronistic use of the designations fascist and nazi some have attempted to, along with bolshevism, put them all together under the concept of ‘totalitarianism’. It would be foolish to deny that they have much in common such as curtailing freedoms to guarantee them, worship of a charismatic leader, militarism, love of authority, xenophobia etc. Call it what you like: fascism, nazism, totalitarianism, nationalism or just decadent capitalism the truth is that they are all dependent on irrational ideologies. Of course we need to put such movements in their historical context but that doesn’t stop their continual reappearance which implies such impulses, like religion, are deep seated in all private property societies and constitute a profound psychological barrier to socialism which needs to be confronted.
“No similarities then? Bolshevik authoritarianism, militarism, imperialism, leader cult, hatred of democracy, state dominance in every sphere of life both private and public, nationalism, ruling elites, wage slavery, continual sloganizing propaganda, racism, no free speech or press, politicized courts, concentration camps (gulags), etc. etc.”
Every single claim in your long list is a lie propagated by the bourgeois press, academia and intelligence servcies. As you’re a Guardian Bro you are a credulous consumer of such untruths. You will wholeheartedly believe the most ridiculous claims made about socialists because you hate them. You only use Marxism to trash Marxists. Grover Furr does a great job debunking every one of the lies of the bourgeois press that you’ve just parroted. Squawk!
“MS – We may be wasting our time with TrueScotsman but someone reading the debate who might hold similar views may be persuaded by our arguments.”
Lol, you don’t have any arguments. Why come here when you can just go to the Guardian and get the exact same tripe served only with a bit more rhetorical flourish?
“As for the anachronistic use of the designations fascist and nazi some have attempted to, along with bolshevism, put them all together under the concept of ‘totalitarianism’.”
Totalitarianism is a stupid concept impossible to implement. But if anything comes close to it it’s capitalism.
“It would be foolish to deny”
Erm no. It would be foolish to compare. The two systems are polar opposites.
“that they have much in common such as curtailing freedoms”
Lol. All societies curtail freedoms. Tried out your freedom to murder lately?
“worship of a charismatic leader”
Stalin fought against the personality cult some were encouraging. He absolutely did not endorse it.
“militarism”
One can not defend one’s revolution against capitalist reaction without a miltary. A point you fools will never understand.
“love of authority”
Civilization requires a level of authority it simply can not be avoided. Murderers need to be arrested, land needs to be appropriated for vital projects, rations need to be cut during food crises. That’s the compromise one must make if one wants to live in a society. Perhaps you’d prefer to live alone in a cave in the Himalayas? Then you’d be free of all authority but your own. Do try it, please, I’m begging you!
“xenophobia”
Lol, the people whose anthem is The International are actually xenophobes don’t you know?!
“Call it what you like: fascism, nazism, totalitarianism, nationalism or just decadent capitalism the truth is that they are all dependent on irrational ideologies.”
But your ideology, the one that says you should just run away whenever anything bad ever happens, is not irratiinal. Lol
“Of course we need to put such movements in their historical context”
Yeah, whatever historical context The Guardian puts socialism in because The Guardian is the font of all knowledge.
“and constitute a profound psychological barrier to socialism which needs to be confronted.”
You know what is more of a psychological barrier to socialism? Demonising actual socialists and their societies. You lot constantly froth at the mouth as you pour invective on socialist societies then say, “workers, embrace socialism!” I swear to God if you’re not a capitalist psyop you bloody well should be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudohistory
“Pseudohistory is a form of pseudoscholarship that attempts to distort or misrepresent the historical record, often by employing methods resembling those used in scholarly historical research.”
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