Russian Tensions
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TS- Kiev lost its right to ever again rule over ethnic Russians when it tried to exterminate them.
Exterminate…strong emotive language.
A civil war was going on since 2014, nobody denies it…but Putin describes the Ukrainian policy against Russian-speaking Donbass as genocide.
The number of deaths was just over 200 during the Euromaidan protests with the deadliest being in Odessa with about 50 killed.
UN and OSCE figures for the period from 2014 to December 31, 2021 is between 14,200 and 14,400 victims.
According to the U.N., 10,900 victims were soldiers, of which 4,400 were Ukrainians and 6,500 pro-Russian combatants. Most of the deaths took place between 2014 and 2015.
Civilian victims were between 3,400 and 3,500. Almost 300 deaths being from the Russian or Separatist militia shooting down of the Malaysian airliner. Many of the other civilian casualties were from mines.
Now tell me the number of deaths since the beginning of the invasion.
If these figures should be considered extermination and genocide I suggest a look at the wars going on and ignored in Africa as a comparison.
There is UN definitions of genocide or crimes against humanity that does not equate to killing. Perhaps that is the extermination you refer to. Perhaps you can clarify.
Were Russian-speakers persecuted? If Ukraine had joined the EU, its discrimination against Russian-speakers would have been designated as illegal.
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This is to pre-empt the possibility of escalation and retaliation.
Resorting to sexual innuendos is one of the lowest forms of verbal abuse. TS does it constantly, which reinforces my belief that he is young.
“Exterminate…strong emotive language.”
The war started on February 24th because the Ukrainians had built up an invading army of at least 125,000 troops to crush the Donbass militarily and cleanse the oblasts of all ethnic Russians. A devestating Ukrainian artillery bombardment had been in progress for days which was the prelude to the assault. With invasion imminent Donbass authorities entreated Russia for military aid which was granted.
“UN and OSCE figures for the period from 2014 to December 31, 2021 is between 14,200 and 14,400 victims.
According to the U.N., 10,900 victims were soldiers, of which 4,400 were Ukrainians and 6,500 pro-Russian combatants. Most of the deaths took place between 2014 and 2015.”
“Pro Russian combatants”. I see you got the memo regarding the correct NATOstani propaganda sobriquet to be used to describe ethnic Russian Ukrainians of the Donbass. Good boy, a treat for the running dog. Those 6,500 “soldiers” were almost all civilians who’d taken up arms to defend themselves and their families against the fascists. Your designations parrot those of the imperialist warmongers. Bravo!
“Civilian victims were between 3,400 and 3,500. Almost 300 deaths being from the Russian or Separatist militia shooting down of the Malaysian airliner. Many of the other civilian casualties were from mines.”
Responsibility for the shooting down of The Malaysia Airlines flight is contested. Don’t make out otherwise. It’s far more likely that it was shot down by Ukrainian forces.
“Now tell me the number of deaths since the beginning of the invasion.”
The Ukrainians were prevented from carrying out their ethnic cleansing operation so we can only speculate as to how many lives were spared.
“If these figures should be considered extermination and genocide I suggest a look at the wars going on and ignored in Africa as a comparison.”
Genocide is destroying in whole or part a people or their culture. The Ukrainians had already wholly committed to the latter. Indeed it is this latter which has deranged anti-communists such as yourself claiming genocide in Xinjiang. They were just getting warmed up for the former til Russia intervened.
“There is UN definitions of genocide or crimes against humanity that does not equate to killing. Perhaps that is the extermination you refer to. Perhaps you can clarify.”
No, both.
“Were Russian-speakers persecuted?”
Is being murdered by shell fire persecution? If so, yes.
“If Ukraine had joined the EU, its discrimination against Russian-speakers would have been designated as illegal.”
Right, I’m sure the Nazis would have been very respectful of EU discrimination laws. Lol
BS. Kiev lost its right to ever again rule over ethnic Russians when it tried to exterminate them.
Knobbo, when you don’t know shit about shit, don’t say shit. Lol
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It seems our resident simp (or should that be pimp?) for Russian capitalism and its imperialist tzar, Vladimir Putin, has been rattled. So much so that in his haste he hasn’t even bothered to read what others write before jumping headfirst into the fray with his customary rant.
Look, as a socialist, I couldn’t care two hoots about the “right of an independent Ukraine” to exist. Or an independent Russia. Or an Independent Britain or United States. I look forward to the day when the toxic institution called the nation-state along with its supporting capitalist ideology of nationalism disappears off the face of the earth.
“True Scotsman” (the name says it all!) understands nothing of this. Sadly he hasn’t got a socialist bone in his body. His pathetic nationalism makes him willing cannon fodder in the cause of some or other capitalist state. Presumably Scotland but also apparently Russia too. What a dilemma our kid must face – I assume he is little more than a precocious teenager judging by his cocky writing style – should his beloved Scotland find itself at war with his beloved Russia.
Anyway, the point is that I simply quoted from an article on “Putin’s imperial ambitions and Ukraine’s three-hundred-year road to statehood” and TS immediately jumps to the conclusion that I support the worldview of the author writing that article. I don’t but that does not mean I dismiss everything that the article said.
TS clearly – and as usual – did not read the article in question. Because very clearly there are sentiments recorded in that article expressed by Putin that affirm his imperialist outlook.
Putin really does see himself as some sort of modern-day version of Peter the Great notwithstanding that he sees himself as being on some sort of moral mission like “denazifying Ukaraine” (he could start with Russia if he was that intent on denazification). In March 2014 he said in a speech “Kyiv is the mother of Russian cities,” and argued that Russia and Ukraine were historically inseparable. “Ancient Rus is our common source and we cannot live without each other.” A few days later Russia annexed Crimea.
I fail to see how anyone can plausibly deny this is an instance of blatant imperialist annexation. It doesn’t matter what the motives were and no one here is defending the actions of the Ukrainian state vis a vis the Russian minorities in Crimea or the Donbas. But the facts speak for themselves. The actions of the Russian state in sending invading forces into another country were technically those of an imperialist power and there is no getting around this.
That, mind you, as I said is on a pretty narrow definition of imperialism – equating it with military invasion and conquest. We Marxists would take a wider view of imperialism in terms of which it can be seen as the latent or manifest expression of capitalism’s own expansionist dynamic. In short, imperialism is a global phenomenon in the same sense that capitalism is. It is merely the symptom of capitalism and capitalism is global
TS- The war started on February 24th
For a timeline that is relevant, why not review this very thread which began on November 15 2021 with reports of the Russian troop build-ups? Your claim of the Ukrainian build-up could well be in response to the Russian one.
In fact, why not check out the Euromaidan
But I thought I look at Donbass Insider, a separatist website, to see what was in the news.
https://www.donbass-insider.com/
Nothing at all reported by the website at the time of a Ukrainian build-up of 125,000 troops. It did report preparations for a possible offensive – a full year previously.
I also checked with the OSCE monitoring mission website
https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine-closed
An increase in ceasefire violations, but no mention of any special Ukrainian troop build-up.
And the vast majority of restrictions placed on the OSCE observers came from the separatists, not the Ukrainians, which would have been expected if they were preparing for an offensive as you claim.
I suggest your own 125,000 figure stems from RT reporting
https://www.rt.com/russia/541829-ukraine-army-deployed-donbass/
Having said all this, once more I have to repeat the overall SPGB position that the Russian invasion was provoked and Ukrainian intransigence encouraged by Western interests.
Robbo, as a relative newcomer to the topic, True Scotsman has explained his screen name a number of times and it has nothing to do with Scotland but refers to the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Interesting article by Michael Roberts on Russian imperialism:
“All this makes a joke of the arguments in the Western media that Putin’s regime is some sort of reversion to the Soviet state. For a start, Putin has often attacked ‘Bolshevism’ and, in particular the views of Lenin that nations like Ukrainians had a right to self-determination. Instead, Putin has turned to the feudal imperialism of Russia’s Peter the Great as his model for the invasion of Ukraine. Putin has eulogized Peter’s conquests in the Great Northern War and praised him for “returning” historically Russian lands. “It seems that it has fallen to us, too, to return (Russian lands),” Putin commented. For him, Ukraine is not a nation but part of Russia, which the nationalist in Kyev and Western powers are tryng to separate.”
Also from the same article – the capitalist motives for the invasion:
“However, there is a problem for Western capital and Ukraine’s oligarchs: it’s Russia. The war has already led to Russian forces gaining control of at least $12.4trn worth of Ukraine’s resources in energy (cola), metals and mineral deposits, apart from agricultural land. If Putin’s forces succeed in annexing Ukrainian land seized during Russia’s invasion, Kyiv would permanently lose almost two-thirds of its deposits. Moscow now controls 63% of Ukraine’s coal deposits, 11% of its oil, 20% of its natural gas, 42% of its metals, and 33% of its rare earths.”
It is hard to imagine that anyone can be so utterly gullible and naive as to believe that the likes of Putin and his fellow parasite cronies care a toss about ordinary “Russian speakers” in Ukraine or elsewhere and are rallying to their defense for that reason. After all, he is quite content to send hundreds of thousands of ordinary Russian workers into the meat grinder that is the Ukrainian war in pursuit of his own imperialist dream. The same goes for Zelinsky and his fellow cronies. This war is not about high ideals like democracy versus dictatorship. It is about resources of spheres of interest between rival capitalist blocs. The west and its prostitute media are just as much to blame as the disgusting capitalist regime of Putin.
The crocodile tears its leaders shed for the lives of ordinary Ukrainian workers are in stark contrast to their complete indifference to what is now going on in the Horn of Africa where the scale of the slaughter is, if anything, even greater. Why? Are not Black Africans, human beings fully deserving of our sympathy and support as much as anyone else? The difference lies in the economic significance of this arbitrary piece of land called Ukraine which the Russian parasite class, headed by Putin, has recognised as well
Also from the same article – the capitalist motives for the invasion:
“However, there is a problem for Western capital and Ukraine’s oligarchs: it’s Russia. The war has already led to Russian forces gaining control of at least $12.4trn worth of Ukraine’s resources in energy (cola), metals and mineral deposits, apart from agricultural land. If Putin’s forces succeed in annexing Ukrainian land seized during Russia’s invasion, Kyiv would permanently lose almost two-thirds of its deposits. Moscow now controls 63% of Ukraine’s coal deposits, 11% of its oil, 20% of its natural gas, 42% of its metals, and 33% of its rare earths.”
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And the pretext is removing the Nazis, and national liberation, and the Russians are the liberators. It is the same pretext of the USA to invade Iraq and to eliminate the terrorists and to liberate them , and they took a chunk of the natural resources of that country. Do the so called Ukraine Nazis own 12.4 trn ? , probably, the German capitalists did not own that amount of resources
What ever happened to leaving it in the hole when it comes to coal for the sake of the environment?
If countries honoured their climate change policies those mines would be stranded assets.
“Look, as a socialist, I couldn’t care two hoots about the “right of an independent Ukraine” to exist.”
That view does not make you a socialist. It makes you an infantile fanatic.
“I look forward to the day when the toxic institution called the nation-state along with its supporting capitalist ideology of nationalism disappears off the face of the earth.”
Lol. And capitalist states are just going to spontaneously disappear are they? It’s views like these that tell the world you’re not serious people.
““True Scotsman” (the name says it all!) understands nothing of this. Sadly he hasn’t got a socialist bone in his body.”
You wouldn’t recognise socialism were it to tear off one of your arms and beat you over the head with it. You denounce all the socialism and socialists who’ve ever actually taken power. It’s why no one takes you seriously.
“Anyway, the point is that I simply quoted from an article on “Putin’s imperial ambitions and Ukraine’s three-hundred-year road to statehood” and TS immediately jumps to the conclusion that I support the worldview of the author writing that article.”
You went to the effort of lifting certain passages from the text. For what purpose? Clearly it’s to, falsely, demonise Russia’s leader.
“I don’t but that does not mean I dismiss everything that the article said.”
Exactly.
“TS clearly – and as usual – did not read the article in question. Because very clearly there are sentiments recorded in that article expressed by Putin that affirm his imperialist outlook.”
I did read the article and no, there aren’t.
“Putin really does see himself as some sort of modern-day version of Peter the Great”
Really? He’s told you that himself has he? Lol
“notwithstanding that he sees himself as being on some sort of moral mission like “denazifying Ukaraine””
That is a moral mission. Russians hate Nazis for very good historical reasons. As do most Brits, French, Jews etc.
“(he could start with Russia if he was that intent on denazification).”
It is illegal to be a member of a Nazi party in Russia.
“In March 2014 he said in a speech “Kyiv is the mother of Russian cities,””
Erm, a historical fact.
“and argued that Russia and Ukraine were historically inseparable.”
You know almost all Ukrainians speak Russian, right? Lol.
““Ancient Rus is our common source and we cannot live without each other.””
A historical fact.
“A few days later Russia annexed Crimea.”
Actually the people of Crimea petitioned to rejoin Russia. They never wanted to be part of Ukraine. Ukraine illegally annexed Crimea in 1991.
“I fail to see how anyone can plausibly deny this is an instance of blatant imperialist annexation.”
So you deny the people of Crimea agency and the right to rejoin their historic homeland and live free of Nazi aggression? Well, they don’t care what you think.
“It doesn’t matter what the motives were and no one here is defending the actions of the Ukrainian state vis a vis the Russian minorities in Crimea or the Donbas. But the facts speak for themselves.”
No, they don’t. “Facts” can be true or false. Yours fall into the latter category.
“The actions of the Russian state in sending invading forces into another country were technically those of an imperialist power and there is no getting around this.”
No, they were not. Russia tried for eight years to avoid this war. It didn’t want it. It wanted the Minsk Accords 1 and 2 to be respected and worked tirelessly for them to be so. But the Nazis in Ukraine and their handlers in Washington had different ideas. And with that, Robbo’s narrative about Russian imperialism goes up in smoke. Pfft.
An define them too, What is the relationship between the workers and its ruling class ?
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