Russian Tensions
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I guess Kropotkin was a Nazi too, for opposing Lenin? Not to mention Rosa Luxemburg and Emma Goldmann?
The Nazi Dalai Lama has written a superb book on science: The Universe in a Single Atom. I strongly recommend it. An excellent Nazi work!
‘Organise an anti-NATO protest of your own if you think the others too “right wing”. You’ve an entire “party” apparatus at your disposal do you not? Mobilize your members, hit the streets, call for the heads of the NATO warmongers to roll! Or, as I suspect, are you all just a bunch of do nothing posers?’
Really, that’s the best advice you can give us and the working class TS? I seem to remember 1 million on the streets protesting the Iraq war – and that really made a lot of difference didn’t it? You’re just an old fashioned juvenile leftie who loves the self indulgence of slogans and demos.
Bijou calls the war between Ukraine and Russia a “gangster turf war”, likening it to the war between Al Capone and Bugs Moran, thus continuing the line of argument put here consistently by SP members: that there is no essential difference (no difference that matters) between Russia and Ukraine, thus wiping out any distinction between the invader and the invaded or between aggressor and the victim. You say they are both capitalist states, autocratic and corrupt, with “two sets of baddies”, Zylensky as bad as Putin (or maybe not quite as bad given Robbo’s description of Putin as “a scumbag sociopathic capitalist”). Then follows the inevitable reckoning: “a plague on both their houses.” There is a certain logic about it, I have to admit. If both sides are equally bad, there can be no talk of a “just war” on either side since it is a war between aggressors and aggressors, not between aggressors and victims. But does the SPGB really believe that Ukraine and Russia are both aggressors in this sense? I thought it was Putin who invaded Ukraine, to which Ukraine responded with military resistance once aggression began. Ukraine was the victim in this case, no matter what you think of Zelensky, and no matter how you recast this war as a “proxy war” between Nato/US and Russia.
Bijou says that his is a Marxist viewpoint because the problem (of Russia-Ukraine war) is the social system (capitalism) “from which war derives”. How this is supposed to help in making judgements about the rightness or wrongness of the war between Ukraine and Russia I have no idea. When Marx spoke about the actualities of war he had no problem distinguishing the aggressor from the victim. At the end of the Franco-Prussian war, with Germany the victor and the second empire of Napoleon III overthrown, Germany invaded France to annexe Alsace-Lorraine.
Marx saw this as an act of aggression against the people of the two provinces and against the territorial integrity of France. In doing so, he fell back on a domestic analogy in stating that the aim of the IWMA (and I would argue, of socialists) was to “vindicate the simple laws of morals and justice, which ought to govern the relations of private individuals, as the laws paramount of the intercourse of nations.” The simple laws of morals and justice explain why so many workers support the people of Ukraine in defending their common life against Putin’s invasion.
(I note that Yanis Varoufakis, a socialist, expresses a similar view, on the other thread on this site (posted by AAJ at #234500).PGB states that there is a Certain logic to the comparison made between Putin versus Zalensky and Bugs Moran versus Al Capone. However, PGB thinks we as socialists should support Zelensky and Ukraine because Putin’s Russia was the aggressor.
Taking this point further, does PGB think that the SPGB should have supported Bugs Moran and his North Side gang in his dispute with Al Capone and the South Side gang because the South Side gang was the aggressor. The logic is the same
“Really, that’s the best advice you can give us and the working class TS? I seem to remember 1 million on the streets protesting the Iraq war”
I see you are rationalising your pathetic inaction. Let me explain why you are so, so wrong. You see, Britain had no skin in the game concerning Iraq. The war didn’t cause a cost of living crisis. Not so re the conflict in Ukraine. People are getting cold and hungry. Soon they’ll be angry and in a revolutionary mood. But you’ll do nothing. You’ll allow this prime organising environment to be exploited by the right. Why am I not surprised?
“Presumably that was to protect the poor citizens of Tibet from that well know Nazi, the Dalai Lama”
Lol. The Dalai Lama was a literal slave lord.
http://www.bjreview.com/Tibet_in_50_Years/2009-03/05/content_182622.htm
” I thought it was Putin who invaded Ukraine, to which Ukraine responded with military resistance once aggression began.”
Ukrainian aggression against ethnic Russian Ukrainians in the Donbas is the foundation of this conflict. Russia entered the conflict to protect the inhabitants of the Donbas from a Nazi led ethnic cleansing operation.
As you clearly suffer from MSM derangement syndrome please read the article linked below to get your mind right.
https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/some-of-us-dont-think-the-russian-invasion-was-aggression-heres-why/
“Bijou calls the war between Ukraine and Russia a “gangster turf war”, likening it to the war between Al Capone and Bugs Moran, thus continuing the line of argument put here consistently by SP members: that there is no essential difference (no difference that matters) between Russia and Ukraine, thus wiping out any distinction between the invader and the invaded or between aggressor and the victim”
___________________________________________________________PGB, We are talking about the essential nature of these regimes. Both are corrupt, revolting, authoritarian, right-wing capitalist regimes administered in the interests of their respective oligarchies. No one even pretending to pay lip service to socialist ideas would touch other of these regimes with a bargepole, let alone legitimise the toxic nationalism that props both of them up
Quite simply, socialists don’t recognize or lend support to that preeminently capitalist institution – the nation-state. Differentiating and taking sides between capitalist states, defining one as the aggressor and the other as the victim is to unintentionally succumb to the ideological paradigm that upholds the nation-state as a preeminently capitalist institution and by extension capitalism itself
Even the most pacific and isolationist capitalist state is founded upon the aggression of class rule and its victims are the working class. We draw a veil over this every time we support one capitalist state against another in their belligerent commercial rivalries called war
“Putin is a politician not a businessman so already you sound like a frothing ignoramus. Is Russia wholly capitalist? No, it’s a mixed economy. More ignorance on display. Is he a scumbag? I don’t know what use the term is in a discussion such as this. He is human with qualities both good and bad like anyone else.”
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Putin is a member of the capitalist class, whether or not he directly engages in business dealings himself or has others do so on his behalf. By any standard, he is an extraordinary wealthy individual, According to some estimates his personal wealth is greater even than that of Musk’s
As for the claim that Russia not a wholly capitalist economy but a mixed economy, TS shows himself to be just as ignorant (and non-socialist) as the liberals he criticises. A so-called mixed economy IS a wholly capitalist economy – the mixture pertaining to a mixture of state and private CAPITAL. state capitalism is no less capitalist than private or free market capitalism. As Engels points that:
“The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head.! (Socialism Utopian and Scientific)
“Putin is a member of the capitalist class”
Erm no, he’s not. He’s a mere politician.
“whether or not he directly engages in business dealings himself or has others do so on his behalf.
By any standard, he is an extraordinary wealthy individual, According to some estimates his personal wealth is greater even than that of Musk’s”And you believe a Forbes article because you’re a Socialist Poser Guardian Bro. You imbibe western propaganda like it’s mother’s milk. The result? You become a credulous, smooth brained dupe. The truth of Putin’s wealth is nowhere near as interesting.
https://russia-insider.com/en/media-criticism/putins-billions-mystery-solved-they-dont-exist/ri13839
“A so-called mixed economy IS a wholly capitalist economy – the mixture pertaining to a mixture of state and private CAPITAL.”
Erm, wrong. Capitalism is all about profit. The state sector isn’t. Lol
“The modern state, no matter what its form,…”
Blah, blah, blah.
So, you’re not gonna organise against NATO? Not gonna tap in to worker disillusionment with the regime? What then is the purpose of your party? To hang out on the internet and declare how righteous a pure driven snowflake of a socialist you are? Your party is a joke. Disband. No one will ever notice.
“Putin is a member of the capitalist class”
Erm no, he’s not. He’s a mere politician.
______________________________________________________-Duh. Is your thinking so limited that you cannot envisage a person can be both things at the same time TS? Trump was a capitalist – even you would not be so dumb as to deny this – yet he ended up as President of the US
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“And you believe a Forbes article because you’re a Socialist Poser Guardian Bro. You imbibe western propaganda like it’s mother’s milk. The result? You become a credulous, smooth-brained dupe. The truth of Putin’s wealth is nowhere near as interesting.”
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Ad homs will get you nowhere TS. This only demonstrates the vacuity and weakness of your argument. And it is rich that an anti-socialist apologist for Russian capitalism like you should call me a socialist poser when you don’t even understand what is meant by socialism. But by all means, continue your bootlicking for your comrade Putin and pretending he is something other than an extraordinary wealthy and powerful member of an exploitative capitalist class if it makes you happy in your little bubble
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A so-called mixed economy IS a wholly capitalist economy – the mixture pertaining to a mixture of state and private CAPITAL.”Erm, wrong. Capitalism is all about profit. The state sector isn’t. Lol
________________________________________________________________LOL yourself TS. Your comments reveal your complete ignorance of Marxian economics. While it is true that part of the state sector does not in itself generate profit – it is unproductive in Marxian terms – it is nevertheless completely dependent on the profit-generating or productive sector of the capitalist economy for its financing. In the Soviet Union for example state enterprises were required by law to generate profits or could be penalised if they did not. A large chunk of these profits reverted to the central state via such mechanisms as turnover taxes – partly to finance the unproductive aspects of the Soviet state like its military machine. The point is that it was the profit-generating state enterprises that ultimately provided this source of finance. Over time an increasing proportion of the profits made by these state enterprises were allowed to be retained by them as the old state capitalist “command economy” model of running capitalism became increasingly unwieldy
“Duh. Is your thinking so limited that you cannot envisage a person can be both things at the same time TS? Trump was a capitalist – even you would not be so dumb as to deny this – yet he ended up as President of the US”
Yeah, Trump is/was a capitalist, Putin isn’t. Is your thinking so limited you cannot envisage a world leader who isn’t a businessman? The Forbes article is for credulous smooth brained chumps.
“Ad homs will get you nowhere TS.”
Pointing out an article is propaganda is not ad hom if it is actual propaganda. I linked to an article proving the fact.
“This only demonstrates the vacuity and weakness of your argument. And it is rich that an anti-socialist apologist for Russian capitalism”
I’ve never once apologised for Russian capitalism. Money where mouth is. Quote me doing so.
“like you should call me a socialist poser when you don’t even understand what is meant by socialism.”
I know it’s not shitting on other socialists which is all that you ever do.
“But by all means, continue your bootlicking for your comrade Putin”
Erm, he’s a capitalist and a communist? You sound a bit confused. Which is it?
“pretending he is something other than an extraordinary wealthy”
There’s no pretending. Read the article for yourself. You’ve fallen for yet more propaganda meant for smooth brained dupes.
“and powerful”
I’ve never “pretended” that he wasn’t powerful so, erm, you’re ranting”
“member of an exploitative capitalist class”
Politicians are a class? Which class?
“it is nevertheless completely dependent on the profit-generating or productive sector of the capitalist economy”
Rubbish. Monetarily sovereign governments can literally print money into existence. Citizens need said money to pay their taxes. The government can employ all the now “unemployed” people and hey presto, the government is fully functioning. No capitalist enterprises necessary whatsoever. Read some modern monetary theory.
“In the Soviet Union for example state enterprises were required by law to generate profits or could be penalised if they did not.”
Entirely different to capitalist profits which are for the capitalist or paying out in dividends to investors. Do read more.
TS (aka Dave Spart) thinks that Britain is on the edge of revolutionary outbreaks “People are getting cold and hungry. Soon they’ll be angry and in a revolutionary mood.” This exposes him clearly (if any other evidence was needed) as a comic opera revolutionary. The people of Britain are worried about the cost of fuel and the cost of living generally, but “in a revolutionary mood”? There was more chance of a revolution kicking off about the football (soccer to you) being cancelled for Liz’s funeral!!
He then criticises us for not joining up in his imaginary revolution! Yet Dave Spart is unwilling to get off his backside and volunteer for the “anti nazi crusade” that Putin is undertaking in Ukraine.
If is because you haven’t got the airfare, DS, just let me know. I’ll set up a “go fund me” page like a flash and I’m pretty sure you will be on that plane quicker than you can say “imperialist lackey”. I’ll even throw a few quid in myself. Send us a picture of us in the front line.
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