Russian Tensions
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And while I am at it, a reminder of Rule 14
“Rule enforcement is the responsibility of the moderators, not of the contributors. If you believe a post or private message violates a rule, report it to the moderators. Do not take it upon yourself to chastise others for perceived violations of the rules.”I acted because of the concern of others on the forum that their own contributions are not being acknowledged and appreciated by the distraction caused by you and TS.
Moderator:
I do not want to act like a moderator, but the problem that we have in this particular thread is that we can not publish anything without being attacked, and that type of behavior is not permitted in other forums, and also we must have certain respect toward the moderators of the forum, in some forum we as moderators we made agreements to respect each other to avoid conflicts
I am participating in several forums from different political tendencies, and most communist left forums they will not allow warmongers who support the killing of workers in their forum, even more they have said that they do not want peoples with criminals mentality in their forums.
Their principles as our are that we are all workers and that we fight for the unification of the working class instead of the killing among workers, policemen and military are members of the working class, and many are young peoples who have been brainwashed with the stupid poison of bourgeois nationalism.
The USA armed forces was planning to hire 60,000 young peoples for this year and they have had 30,000 only, which means that they can not brainwash the minds of the young peoples despite the fact that they are unemployed and they do not have a career, and the Russians are looking for fighters all over the world including paramilitary, gangsters and criminals, like the USA did during the Iraq war
We did not have that type of behaviors when we had the WSM forum thru Yahoo groups, and we had more members and more messages
If we continue in this situation we are going to motivate peoples to leave this forum, even more, there are more members of the Socialist Party participating in other forum than in the forum of the SP and they are doing a very good job in the internet, and everything is done in peace and harmony. We are trying to propagate the Socialist Party case
This is worst than a place for Cocks fight, this forum was created to discuss and exchange ideas, and for workers to learn about socialism, we have had peoples that support Donald Trump and they acted differently .
When I was pretty young I saw a bunch of warriors and when the time came to prove it they were running away, and now we have keyboard warriors doing the same thing, and they are just a bunch of cowards
I am glad that I am not the moderator of this forum
“Don’t you know that I was the moderator of the WSM forum ? At the present time I am running a forum and a Facebook page to propagate the case of the SPGB”
That don’t impress me much! 🙂
For me, it is a great achievement to be a member of the Socialist Party and the WSM, and to dedicate my life to Socialism, even more, it has been my first love since I was a very young person. For us, it was part of our life, it was not a part time, It was and it is a full time job
When I was on the Yahoo Groups forum the vitriol was so bad that I left the party for several years.
It is extremely difficult to predict what the outcome of the war will be but if things get much worse for the Russian military – and, in particular, if Ukraine retakes Crimea – it’s hard to see how Putin could hang on to power. In the meanwhile all power to our fellow workers, Russian and Ukrainian, alike who refuse to be drawn into this sordid capitalist squabble or succumb to that mental disease called nationalism
New York Times acknowledges Ukraine behind assassination of Darya Dugina
David North@davidnorthwsws
18 hours ago
This article was originally posted on Twitter.In its report on the August 20 car bomb assassination in Moscow of Darya Dugina, daughter of the Russian fascist Alexander Dugin, the New York Times hastened to declare that there “was no evidence that the attack was connected to the war in Ukraine…”
The Times cited, without a hint of skepticism, the denial of Ukraine’s involvement by Zelensky adviser Mykhailo Podolyak: “Ukraine certainly had nothing to do with yesterday’s explosion. We are not a criminal state like the Russian Federation, much less a terrorist one.”
But today, the Times has posted an article headlined, “U.S. believes Ukrainians were behind an assassination in Russia.” It reports:
United States intelligence agencies believe parts of the Ukrainian government authorized the car bomb attack … that killed Daria Dugina, the daughter of a prominent Russian nationalist, an element of a covert campaign that U.S. officials fear could widen the conflict.
The Times states: “The United States took no part in the attack, either by providing intelligence or other assistance, officials said. American officials also said they were not aware of the operation ahead of time and would have opposed the killing had they been consulted.”
I deleted Lizzie45 post and had to by default delete MS’s reply to it as it repeated Lizzie’s insult.
The ultimate sanction if people do not abide by our commonsense rules is that I can simply end this thread.
Such happened previously to our Hong Kong democracy topic by another moderator who could not stop acrimonious posts.
Of course there are differences between different capitalist states, TS. Hitler’s Germany is not exactly the same as Putin’s Russia.”
I would posit that it is nowhere near the same. Ukraine on the other hand does share many similarities. I.e., all the Nazis.
“But while there are differences there are also very substantial commonalities- a point you seemingly willfully choose to ignore”
And what would those be exactly? Do enlighten your audience.
“Whether Ukraine is a state “run by literal Nazi” is a moot point. There may be literal Nazis in the regime but that is not the same thing as saying the regime is run by Nazis.”
But the regime is run by Nazis. I’ve provided dozens of links supporting this claim. If you have chosen to ignore them well what can I say? Lead a horse to water, blah, blah.
“In any event, what cannot be doubted is that Ukraine is a thoroughly obnoxious authoritarian and corrupt capitalist regime run in the interests of its oligarchic capitalist class. But what is equally not in doubt is that Russia too is a thoroughly obnoxious authoritarian and corrupt capitalist regime run in the interests of its oligarchic capitalist class”
What you have failed to mention is that Ukraine is a proxy for the US and EU. The core of world imperialism. Arguably the greatest purveyors of violence and tyranny in all of world history.
“You, TS, as a nationalist and pro-capitalist opponent of socialism choose to side with one of these obnoxious capitalist regimes against the other.”
I am neither a nationalist or pro-capitalist. And nor am I a fanatic. That is what you and the Socialist Posers Guardian Bros are. You see, you don’t live in the real world. You live in the world of fantasy and bad ideas. In the real world the imperialist core’s actions cause untold misery and grief to targeted nations whether capitalist, socialist or more likely, a mix of both. That is why I support Russia. It’s why I support Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran and China to name but a few of the nations targeted by the empire and its lackeys.
“Protest all you like that the obnoxious capitalist regime you support – Putin’s Russia –”
This is where the fanatic gets confused. To support the sovereignty of a nation in the face of an attack from the empire is not to support everything about that nation. You see, in the real world, not the world of bad ideas, the victory of the empire over a targeted nation sees that nation’s peoples reduced to penury and untold misery. If you actually cared about workers, as you claim, you too would support their nation’s struggle against the empire. Because, although things might not be perfect now, they’d be infinitely worse under the empire’s boot. This fundamental logic you and your gaggle of Guardian Bros are incapable, for whatever reason, of grasping.
“is somehow morally superior”
And there we have it. This is the reason for your fanaticism. It makes you feel morally superior. You trash all existing and ever existing socialism. You are not socialists. You are the enemy of socialists. Your propaganda has not and never will make purchase in the working class. If they ever listened to your propaganda they’d be horrified by the idea of socialism as you present it and would become useless, feckless liberals. Which is what SPGB members actually are. Liberals.
“what you are apologising for is precisely the disgusting capitalist regime of Putin.”
I’m not apologising for anything. I’m supporting the victim against the serial killer.
“You should be ashamed of yourself!”
I will never be ashamed of supporting a righteous victim of imperialist aggression.
You should delete 234340
The facade is crumbling. An air of defeatism
The head of the lower house of parliament’s defence committee, former general Andrei Kartapolov, said on Wednesday that the army should “stop lying”, as Russia’s official daily briefings speak of enormous losses supposedly suffered by Ukrainian forces without mentioning the high-profile failures of Russian troops on the battlefield. Kartapolov went on to suggest that the Kremlin’s propaganda efforts were also falling short.
“The people know. Our people are not stupid,” the former general said. “They see that we do not want to tell them even part of the truth…”
“The facade is crumbling. An air of defeatism”
The parliamentarian is exercising his right to free speech. Notice, he hasn’t been engulaged for doing so. And no, the “facade” is not “crumbling”. Russia is winning this conflict decisively. That will become even more obvious throuhgout the winter.
If people wish to continue this thread, it is their choice.
I have said enough and now withdraw as a participant and contributor.
I believe this thread has served its purpose and run its course.
It has repeatedly expressed the socialist position that we do not consider the defence of Ukraine nor of Donbas worth the blood of our fellow-workers, both sides being duped by nationalism into meaningless sacrifices.
We do not accept the pretext of Russian invasion was a “humanitarian” intervention nor that NATO arming of Ukraine is protecting “democracy”.
We commended those Ukrainian men called up who sought to flee the country as refugees and we applaud those Russians who are now rejecting conscription by becoming exiles.
We want an end to the war and if the price of peace is ceding territory, then let it be so.
I will, of course, visit the topic in my role as a watchful moderator.
If something occurs that I believe warrants a special comment by myself I will start a new topic thread for such a specific event.
“I would posit that it is nowhere near the same. Ukraine on the other hand does share many similarities. I.e., all the Nazis.”
_________________________________________________________________TS There are full-blown Nazis around in Ukraine and in the regime. But it is absurd to say the regime itself is Nazi-run. That’s just stretching the term “Nazi” to the point of being meaningless. Ukraine is undoubtedly a corrupt authoritarian obnoxious regime but that is not the same thing as saying it is a nazi regime. Do you even understand what is meant by the term Nazi?
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““But while there are differences there are also very substantial commonalities- a point you seemingly willfully choose to ignore”And what would those be exactly? Do enlighten your audience.”
___________________________________________________________________I have already done so. Both regimes are obnoxious capitalist oligarchical regimes. Both are authoritarian and oppressive, Both are highly corrupt – amongst the worst in the world according to the transparency index. Need I go on?
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“What you have failed to mention is that Ukraine is a proxy for the US and EU. The core of world imperialism. Arguably the greatest purveyors of violence and tyranny in all of world history.”
____________________________________________________________________Russia is an imperialist power too. Does that mean we must support one imperialist power against another? How does that amount to combating imperialism? Apart from which, imperialism is only an outgrowth of capitalism and capitalism is global. It is capitalism that is the problem and imperialism is just an invitable symptom of the problem. You have no interest in getting rid of capitalism (on the contrary you endorse various state capitalist regimes). By extension, your actions do nothing to combat imperialism but on the contrary help to support a support a system whose very dynamic is imperialist
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“I am neither a nationalist or pro-capitalist. And nor am I a fanatic. That is what you and the Socialist Posers Guardian Bros are. You see, you don’t live in the real world. You live in the world of fantasy and bad ideas. In the real world the imperialist core’s actions cause untold misery and grief to targeted nations whether capitalist, socialist or more likely, a mix of both. That is why I support Russia. It’s why I support Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran and China to name but a few of the nations targeted by the empire and its lackeys.”
___________________________________________________________________LOL TS you talking about living in the real world but you don’t even grasp the obvious fact that the kind of anti-socialist and pro-capitalist ideas you espouse give succour to the various obnoxious capitalist regimes you refer to. You don’t see this because you don’t understand what socialism is about – at all. Do you seriously imagine that the actions of an imperialist power like Russia does not also cause untold misery and grief to a targeted nation like Ukraine? Russia may not be the world’s most powerful imperialist power but that does make its military adventurism any the less repugnant. Or perhaps you dont see anything repugnant about Russian missiles killing civilians or Russian soldiers executing civilians. As for your jibe about the SPGB, to the contrary, I believe the SPGB (along with a few others) has taken the ONLY realistic position one can take in this whole sordid business by declaring that not a drop of working-class blood is worth shedding to perpetuate this senseless carnage
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“And there we have it. This is the reason for your fanaticism. It makes you feel morally superior. You trash all existing and ever existing socialism. You are not socialists. You are the enemy of socialists. Your propaganda has not and never will make purchase in the working class. If they ever listened to your propaganda they’d be horrified by the idea of socialism as you present it and would become useless, feckless liberals. Which is what SPGB members actually are. Liberals.”
___________________________________________________________________Again LOL LOL LOL TS, You talk of “all-existing socialisms” thereby demonstrating that you understand nothing of socialism and indeed exhibit the same misunderstanding of socialism as the liberals you claim to oppose have in equating it with the various state capitalist regimes you support. Liberals by the way tend on the whole to support Ukraine in this war. The SPGB by contrast adamantly refuses to take sides in supporting one capitalist power against another. Get your facts straight
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“I will never be ashamed of supporting a righteous victim of imperialist aggression.”
____________________________________________________________________Tell that to a Ukrainian family that has just witnessed its home being demolished by a missile launched by the imperialist forces of the Russian military
This…
Ukraine leader said he will strike Russia. Which Russia says it will retaliate with nuclear weapons.
Apparently, he has been misunderstood?Ukraine war: World must act now to stop Russia nuclear threat – Zelensky https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63173443
“Ukraine leader said he will strike Russia. Which Russia says it will retaliate with nuclear weapons.
Apparently, he has been misunderstood?”Zelensky was not misunderstood. He is calling for Russia to be preemptively attacked with nuclear weapons. Read his words for yourself.
“Preemptive strikes are needed so that they know what awaits them if they use nuclear weapons. Not the other way around, waiting for Russia’s nuclear strikes and then saying, ‘oh, you’ve done that, then get this,'” he said on Thursday, speaking via video link at Australia’s think tank, the Lowy Institute.”
What’s to misunderstand? Zelensky’s a demented fascist. They say such things. The Russians will certainly retaliate with nukes if attacked with them. That’s hardly surprising.
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