Russian Tensions
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Since when did Sovietists care about the workers of the world?
Castro was furious when Khrushchev turned back from the brink. He had no care for the world’s workers, but was prepared to provoke a nuclear holocaust.
The same with the militarists in Russia, talking about obliterating Britain – meaning the horrible deaths of millions of workers, individuals with feelings, connections, hopes and dreams just like people everywhere. We are not millions of Liz Truss clones!
So, alien and TS, we are not fighting your bloody war. So, instead of bothering us, why don’t you two go and enlist in the Russian army?
“So, alien and TS, we are not fighting your bloody war.”
I don’t believe either of us asked you to.
“So, instead of bothering us,”
This is a public forum. I belong here as much as you do. If you don’t like reading my comments you are free to ignore them.
“why don’t you two go and enlist in the Russian army?”
Russia has this well and truly covered. But if a Nazi hoard should head my way I’ll happily shoot at them.
Sorry for the confusion Alan Johnson – My question was addressed to another and not you. I did click on the reply button at the top but perhaps this is not what one is supposed to do. I know very much where you are coming from and what you do and have contributed for years. Although not intended for you I’m deeply sorry for any hurt and confusion caused to you. My warmest best wishes to you.
alien1 – I have indeed made a study of events in the area and would agree with a lot of your analysis. At the last count (by Wikipedia) there were about 150 ongoing struggles for independence in the world and most of them contain horror stories of oppression. As we’ve seen in the past that even if these struggles are successful having an ‘indigenous’ ruling class never ends the problems that fueled the rebellions in the first place. We must never support the struggles for new nation states because they and their elites will cause the same problems. Nationalism (tribalism) is the greatest enemy of socialism not least because it enables the ruling class to convince the working class that they should murder each other. Zelenski and Putin are killing nobody – it is our own class killing each other. Socialists say f**k all leaders and their interminable quest for power.
In reply to Wez – I would add that nowhere did I advocate support for ‘new nation states’ (or nationalism) although the ‘right to self determination’ is part of the UN Charter and self determination by individuals or cooperating communities that is not at the expense of others is surely desirable. Thank you for agreeing with some of what I had to say this time around. One of the reasons I give so little time to this forum is its instant, often, it seems, unthinking social media type dialogue. Anyway best to you.
Alien1, your civility is much appreciated. Forum exchanges do get heated and I did express my feelings a bit too strongly.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, our reasons for opposing this war may differ, but we all hope it draws to a close.
Both sides have to compromise and make concessions.
Zelenskyy UN speech is not going to be the basis of a negotiated peace and nor will Putin’s intransigence.
If surrendering some territory is the price of ending the war, so be it.
As Marx said, “The working men have no country. We cannot take away from them what they have not got.”
“Since when did Sovietists care about the workers of the world?”
When they aided national liberation movements across the continents.
“Castro was furious when Khrushchev turned back from the brink. He had no care for the world’s workers, but was prepared to provoke a nuclear holocaust.”
The US had already attempted to invade his nation. Emotions were understandably high.
“The same with the militarists in Russia, talking about obliterating Britain – meaning the horrible deaths of millions of workers, individuals with feelings, connections, hopes and dreams just like people everywhere. We are not millions of Liz Truss clones!”
Russia has no first strike doctrine. It was Truss who talked tough on pressing the button. Putin was reminding the stupid cow of the consequences of making nuclear threats.
The LNG lobby explained.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/22/gas-industry-ukraine-war-biden-policy
As Marx said, TS, “The working men have no country. We cannot take away from them what they have not got.”
“What are you suggesting, that the people/workers should lie down and allow these Nazi scum to eradicate then – a’final solution’?”
This is literally what Alan suggests. A few posts back I asked him: Should the Soviet Union have allowed the Nazis to occupy the entirety of former Polish territory? Yes or no?
Alan wrote in response…
“The answer is yes…There are many ways of resisting oppression by civil disobedience when there is a determined opposition. Thomas More has already mentioned Denmark’s response where Jews went unmolested and did not need to wear the yellow star…The Nazis managed to maintain control with the propaganda line that it was a war of defence, just as all other belligerent nations do.”
In another post he wrote…
“The sovereignty of Ukraine or the two breakaway separatist republics can be sacrificed if it means an end to the war. A patch of dirt that has never actually owned by workers living on it has never been justification for dying.”
He literally thinks the peoples of the Donbass should lie down in peaceful civil disobedience and be eradicated.
People in the Donbas have more to fear from the conscription officers of their tinpot regime. I don’t envy the fate of any genuine socialists, anarchists or pacifists even, who are taken out of hiding by the nationalists there and who can’t escape.
For you, conscientious objectors are “cowards”, aren’t we, who no doubt should be executed.
“For you, conscientious objectors are “cowards”, aren’t we, who no doubt should be executed.”
Cowards. Yes. Executed. No.
Cowards? Here is a description of what happened to religious conscientious objectors in Kansas in 1918.
https://anabaptistwiki.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hutterite_Martyrs_of_1918
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