Russian Tensions
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‘Socialists should be interested that workers/people are dying and why they are dying.’
They are dying because they are murdering each other in the name of one capitalist regime or another. Hard to put it more clearly.Ever since this topic thread was created we have been faced with the problem of reliable sources and have always acknowledged that when we cite media reporting it should always be with the important caveat that we are subject to misinformation from all sides in this war. That fact was well understood, even if not always included in a post.
We questioned some of the atrocity stories. We questioned the so-called democracy of Ukraine. We understood the war as being part of a vastly bigger picture of Great Power geo-politics. We agreed the best strategy for individual workers was to flee to safety and condemned the forced conscription of them, first by the Ukraine government, now the Russian call-up.
Even those who are pro-peace and anti-war do not always agree on the causes and the pretext for either the Russian invasion or the West’s support for Ukraine.
We are well aware of the crocodile tears being shed for all those countries suffering food price crisis when the military aid given to Ukraine is ten-fold the humanitarian aid to Africa.
2,415 posts started from before the war began, perhaps a record contribution and sometimes the prevailing analysis has been mistaken.
From the very beginning, one voice raised the prospect of nuclear war which was thought alarmist but that threat has not disappeared but has only been reinforced.
We have linked to many articles of our political rivals and accepted that we share much of their no war but class war position with our own nuanced understanding of that slogan.
Our position has never been the liberal Guardian echo-chamber, nor the Daily Mail bellicose one, or the loyal opposition of Starmer’s Labour Party seconding Johnson and now Truss.
Our position on the war has remained consistent. Neither the assault of Russia even if in “self-defence” nor the resistance of Ukraine, equally supposedly in “self-defence” is worth the economic pain much less the blood of our fellow-workers.
The sovereignty of Ukraine or the two breakaway separatist republics can be sacrificed if it means an end to the war. A patch of dirt that has never actually owned by workers living on it has never been justification for dying.
Any type of patriotism and nationalism is always to be objected to. It makes us unpopular but we will live with that and try to explain why every fucking day some war is happening somewhere around this world.
Too often the case is that our people dying unnecessarily in capitalist conflicts are ignored and neglected, other than a token passing mention, hidden away in the inside pages of the Guardian.
Russian police are reported to have arrested hundreds of protesters rallying against the Kremlin’s decision to call up thousands of extra troops to fight in Ukraine.
Russian human rights group OVD-Info put the total at more than 900. The largest number arrested was in Yekaterinburg, a major city east of Moscow.
Dozens were also detained in Irkutsk and other Siberian cities, and Moscow.
Flights out of Russia sold out fast after Vladimir Putin’s announcement.
Russia’s president ordered a partial mobilisation, meaning some 300,000 military reservists – but not conscripts – will be drafted to bolster Russia’s forces who have suffered recent battlefield reverses in Ukraine.
Are we going to see another military draft in Russia like in the USA during the Vietnam war ? Are we going to see Russians fleeing to other countries like American did during the Vietnam war to avoid the military drat ? One side is not the only one publishing fake news, both sides are a Bunch of liars, and both want workers to die for them. Who ever take sides with any of them is taking side with liars and criminals, as during ww2 , peoples died defending the capitalist class and two land robbers became the new bosses. The only thing that I know is that the socialist party does not have blood in its hands
Where is the solidarity?
Some Western nations have suggested they will not provide asylum or refuge to people fleeing Russia.
Latvian Foreign Minister Edgars Rinkevics wrote on Twitter: “Due to security reasons, Latvia will not issue humanitarian or other types of visas to those Russian citizens who avoid mobilisation.”
Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Reinsalu was quoted by Reuters as saying that a “refusal to fulfil one’s civic duty in Russia or a desire to do so does not constitute sufficient grounds for being granted asylum in another country.”
https://www.dw.com/en/russia-rush-for-flights-out-after-vladimir-putins-military-call-up/a-63197512
Another patriotic war to defend and die for the interests of the Russian capitalist class, Where are the left-wing groups that protested during the 60-70 against the Vietnam war and the military draft ? Probably supporting Putin or the Ukrainian capitalist class, now both are anti imperialists
“Good to hear the voice of realism from ‘TrueScotsman’.”
And from yourself too. It’s all about finding good sources. Mine include…
Andrei Martyanov (YouTube)
Scott Ritter (YouTube)
Alexander Mercouris (YouTube)
https://www.moonofalabama.org/
“Being realistic about the US/Natostan war on Russia (as opposed to the constant stream of drivel from Western MSM – Guardian et al) does not equate with support for war.”
That is true though I find such a position objectionable. If one side is composed of Nazis who have been slaughtering people of a particular ethnic group for 8 years and were imminently embarking on a “final solution”, how can one not support a military operation in their defence? Alan would have the ethnic Russians engage in a) non-violent civil disobedience or b) fleeing, both of which would ensure the success of the ethnic cleansing operation. Then what? Natosatan has made it clear it wishes to dissolve Russia.
https://multipolarista.com/2022/06/23/us-government-decolonize-russia/
Alan would have every last Russian jump into the sea so that the lives of fascist “workers” who’d otherwise be engaged in exterminating them
could be spared.Alan and his merry band of misfits live in an imaginary world where socialist revolutions erupt spontaneously without leaders and can defend their gains through the power of a few good arguments. They are delusional. Revolutions happen only after years if not decades of agitation directed by leaders. Once power is gained it must be defended against fascist reaction which follows every successful revolution as surely as night follows day. If the revolutionaries deny themselves a means of defending themselves then they’ll be butchered. How will that benefit workers?
Obviously Russia is not a revolutionary socialist state but it once was and many people there are still sympathetic to socialism. As Natostan’s racist, imperialist aggression against Russia escalates and Russia is drawn more into the orbit of China it’s possible to imagine a shift towards socialism as has happened many times in history such as with Cuba or Venezuela.
The Russian state has the right, indeed the duty, to defend itself and its people. It would be criminally irresponsible if it did anything but. Ask Somalis what it’s like to live in a nation without a state. But Alan would have the Russians fold like a cheap lawn chair. He would have the Russians throw themselves upon the mercy of fascists who want them exterminated at worst, abject slaves at best.
See how your fellow party members turn on you when you defy their absurd orthodoxy? They are not worthy comrades.
Peace in Ukraine Coalition (PIUC)
PIUC condemns the Russian invasion, but at the same time also draws attention to several very provocative actions of the USA which led to this invasion…
PIUC is for further improving/increasing humanitarian assistance to Ukraine and calls upon countries to accept and assist more refugees from Ukraine. At the same time it wants weapons and military assistance by the USA and its allies to Ukraine to be checked.
The key demands of PIUC are—
Ceasefire
Diplomacy to end the war in Ukraine
More dollars for climate, jobs, health and housing, not for weapons for endless war
Do not risk nuclear war.
PIUC has opposed all those sanctions which hurt ordinary people of Russia.
It has expressed solidarity with those peace activists of Russia who have opposed its invasion.
Good morning Wez. ‘Are you some kind of expert? Whatever happens why should the working class of that area care if they are being exploited by Ukrainian or Russian oligarchs?’ In answer to your first question; No! Just someone who has taken the time and made the effort to do what you could do as well if so inclined – to understand what is actually going on by finding reliable and generally very accurate sources. I also have contacts, ethnic Russians and others, who are living in the Donbas, some of who have been fighting (some who have died) for the past eight years against NATO backed/equipped Nazis (Azov; Right Sector; Aidar; Kraken; etc) for the right to live on the land where they were born, speak their native tongue, express their culture and not be murdered or ethnically cleansed for being filthy Russians. By the time RF forces moved into Ukraine in February more that 14000 Donbas people had been killed by ‘their’ army. Half the population were refugees in Russia. Go find the YouTube videos of Poroshenko bragging about what he was going to do with these ‘untermenchen’.
The second question ‘should the working class of that area care if they are being exploited by Ukrainian or Russian oligarchs?’ given the circumstances on the ground is about as crass as it gets. What are you suggesting, that the people/workers should lie down and allow these Nazi scum to eradicate then – a’final solution’? The US brought these people to power with the coup of 2014 – encouraged and funded/organised the attacks in the Donbas (and Kharkiv, Kherson, Odessa, Zaporozhye Oblasts) against ethnic Russians with aim of provoking Russia into military action and bringing about the collapse of the RF and its Balkanisation and exploitation by the West. As with their sanctions against Russia they badly miscalculated. Russia is strengthened and a multi-polar, as opposed to a uni-polar, capitalist world is emerging and capitalism is being given a new lease of life. So, by taking the time to understand the reality of what is going on does this indicate that I am any less a socialist than you, presumably, claim to be? Does it indicate that I am not in full agreement with what the SPGB has stood for these near 120 years? Because I have no realistic hope that there will be socialism in what short lifetime I have left to me mean that I should just give up on the dream of a better, socialist world and fade away? Answers (and any apologies) on a postcard.Is it any different in Tigray? Ethiopia and Eritrea combining to devastate another breakaway republic, and starving its peoples into submission. Their suffering is ignored.(Just to add, my attitude to Tigrayan separatism is the same as it is to any nationalism, a tragic mistake.)
Have you “taken the time and made the effort to do what you could do as well if so inclined – to understand what is actually going on by finding reliable and generally very accurate sources.” ?
What is so unique about the Ukrainian war is the question I keep asking myself.
What is so deserving of the Ukrainian refugees who fled the war that they are welcomed and others fleeing to safety are shut out?
What is so deserving of ethnic Russians in the Donbass that they merit special protection from a Great Power but not other populations at risk?
Why are so many resources being spent on the defence of both sides of this war?
I take it you consider yourself a world socialist, Alien1 and that what happens to workers anywhere is the concern of socialists everywhere.
We have a blog that offers news on what is happening across Africa.
How many on this forum actually care enough to read it?
https://socialistbanner.blogspot.com/People are people and we shouldn’t differentiate among them regards ending their misery and pain.
Perhaps the answer to my questions is white privilege. Some people’s skin colour happens to be wrong to create sympathy and solidarity.
As long as you and I have our mobiles and laptops who fucking cares about the price being paid in blood every day, every month, every year in the Congo for the cobalt to power them?
Sometimes, I just lose it at the sanctimonious hypocrisy and righteousness of my fellow workers and I apologise in advance
And the answer is in what you replied, alien1…My genuine emotional outburst for the overwhelmingly neglected populations around the world is described as gibberish but your personal friends are more deserving of understanding and support than individuals not known to you, even if it does bring the world to the brink of a nuclear war.
I would be sympathetic if I really thought Putin cared for Donetsk and Luhansk. Once the incorporation of the two republics is accomplished they are claimed as part of Russia and the war now becomes the defence of Mother Russia, a good old patriotic recruitment ploy.
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