Religious freedom
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The Ranters (not a sect but a multiplicity of groups and individuals) and the Anabaptist groups did grow out of the Reformation but were revolutionary in a non-religious sense and not part of protestantism. Some set fire to Bibles. They Ranters were not in an arena where they faced Catholicism, but a protestant state power. Of course, they would not have been permitted to exist on the continent. The Anabaptist regime in Muenster did have cultish qualities, and did face Catholic power.
Anabaptists (and Quakers) became pacifists only when their revolutionary hopes were dashed, and for many it was the price of their lives.
So then emerged the Mennonites and Amish, who were made to leave Europe on pain of death – the English Quakers organising for them their travel to America. The older Hutterites of Germany found a refuge first in Orthodox Russia, whilst Mennonites there settled and became wealthy landowners.By stressing good works and mutual aid, the Anabaptists were closer to mediaeval Catholicism than to Protestantism which preaches faith alone.
The Angelus was said at noon.
One isn’t supposed to “start all over again” after confession (I dare say Fr. Ted does!), but to try to refrain from “sin.”
Why the Catholic Church should be inordinately targeted by comparison with protestantism I don’t get. You don’t find it overly one-sided?
Thanks TM
Well it couldn’t have been the Angelus because I can recall us kids filing into chapel in the evenings for short spell of prayers of some sort
I guess one reason the Catholic Church is inordinately targeted by comparison with Protestantism is that it is more formidably institutionalised along hierarchical lines. Protestantism takes a more individualistic approach to religion without the church mediating so conspicuously between you and God. So it sits more comfortably with capitalism.
That, I believe, was part of the argument Max Weber used in his 1905 text “The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism”. Protestantism was more amenable to the accumulation of capital and worldly wealth
TM, I don’t think you are yet quite ready to be accepted into the Roman Catholic Church. The so-called “angelus” is also said and sounded at 6am and 6pm. I don’t know if this is still the case:
“In Ireland, the Angelus is currently broadcast every night before the main evening news at 18:00 on the main national TV channel, RTÉ One, and on the broadcaster’s sister radio station, Radio 1, at noon and 18:00.”
Unlike Robbo and Bijou Drains, I really bought into it all, especially the Latin Mass and the miracles and Catholic martyrs stories, until I was around 18 years of age.
I really cringe at the thought of what a self righteous little prick I was until then.
“The devotion was traditionally recited in Roman Catholic churches, convents, and monasteries three times daily: 06:00, 12:00 and 18:00 (many churches still follow the devotion, and some practice it at home).[2]”
I stand corrected. In my grandmother’s prayer book only noon was mentioned. 6.00 am is prime, and 6.00 pm vespers.
The hours of the Church are those of the medieval clock. Each medieval hour was three of ours.
12 midnight matins
3 am lauds
6 am prime
9 am terce
12 noon sext
3 pm none
6 pm vespers
9 pm complineI’ve never had a Catholic try to convert me. Evangelicals on the other hand …
Bless you TM. The Angelus bells were a signal for such personal devotion as well as cue for an Irish rebel song , “The Foggy Dew”.
I used to do it, a recitation of “An angel of the Lord declared unto Mary and she was conceived by the Holy Ghost”, and then followed by 3 Hail Mary’s.
I am sick to my stomach just thinking about it.
The Reformation was solely about destruction.
I’ve never had a Catholic try to convert me. Evangelicals on the other hand …
Oh you are lucky then. Not so long ago if you wanted to marry a Catholic you had receive ‘instruction’ in order to convert, or the marriage would not be recognised in the eyes of the church and children would be bastards.
So very sorry you all had such rotten schooldays, which explains your bias. I did not, so cannot comment on that. All I can go by is what I notice today, which leaves me astonished that everyone hates Catholicism more than other cults of Christianity. A few of the things I notice as a non-Christian today are:
Catholics can laugh about their religion; protestants can’t.
Protestants are bible-thumpers, Catholics aren’t. Evang. protestants talk about being Christian all the time, Catholics don’t. Evang. prots. tend to be right-wing, Catholics today don’t. Ev. prots. tend to be pro-death penalty, Catholics anti. Prots talk about faith alone and dismiss good works, Catholics are the opposite. Prots are fundamentalist creationists, Catholics accept evolution and don’t stress the Bible. Prots only read the Bible and dismiss the value of history and knowledge, whereas Catholics value education. The Vatican today at least openly condemns wars and executions, while ev. prots support them. Catholic clergy have been murdered for trying to help native south Americans, certain prots supported the CIA in Guatemala.
I know none of these good points precede Vatican II. On the other hand, the mediaeval Church was better than the Tridentine streamlined model notoriously oppressive and colonialist. I am also fully aware of the Tridentine Church’s role with Franco in Spain and not blind to it.I’m astonished at the bias, given these points above taken as a whole.
I am not supporting Catholicism per se, but favouring the mediaeval Church and world by contrast with the suffering and wholesale destruction inflicted by the Tudor Reformation and striving to balance the narrative.
I do not support the Church against the Cathars, however.
Nor do I support it against the Philosophes and Encyclopedists.I do not support the Church wherever it is persecutor or executioner, any more than I support the Henrician and Elizabethan state.
By the logic of “progress” you would also have to support the Conquistadors, which I do not, and colonialism, which I do not.
I went to RC primary and secondary schools. One thing I remember from the former is one of the teachers asking “How do we know we’re right?” and then proceeding to tell us. I forget the detail, but the gist was that Catholics had the answer and we could consider ourselves superior.
Despite my supposed superiority I was in great fear of damnation by eating meat on a Friday or having impure thoughts. But it was ok as long as you went to confession and offloaded your errant ways onto the priest.
One of our secondary school teachers tried to wise us up by saying that often Catholics only knew the first answer to a sceptical questioner but not the second. In other words, we could be floored by someone probing more deeply. Well, yes, I wonder why that was?
“So very sorry you all had such rotten schooldays.”
I didn’t say I had a rotten time, that’s a judgement you made.
I had the time of my life.
I learned how to shoplift and play three card brag, dice and poker. I was drinking by the age of thirteen, I played endless games of football and only an ex catholic can truly appreciate the exquisite deliciousness of sin.
I was a catholic at 18 and a party member by the time I was 21, what sinful 3 years that was!!!!!
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