Religious freedom
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Actually Thomas it was the religious ritual of the mass that turned me off religion as a catholic teenager – it was so insufferably boring. I recall each time I went to mass I would grab a Catholic Truth Society pamphlet in the rack at the back of the church and read through it instead of attending to what was being said. One of these pamphlets (I think on the topic of sin) got me thinking and seriously questioning my religious faith
But fair enough , each to their own. Some of the things you like I like too and I’m sorry, Ozy, but its patently ridiculous to infer from a love of “the Latin Mass and the Greek Liturgy” , an endorsement of the horrific acts you mention committed by “Bon Secours Sisters” at Tuam in Ireland. That’s way over the top. I suspect most religious people would be horrified too by such acts
Just as I don’t think you need to have read Marx or whoever to become a socialist so I don’t think its going to matter terribly much that many people are still likely to hold religious ideas in some shape or form for the indefinite future. Its not going to prevent such people from wanting or working to achieve socialism
What is more probable than the secularisation thesis is that the form and practice of religion and religious beliefs will change over time and particularly so in response to the growth of the socialist movement itself
Historical materialism rather than philosophical materialism is what we should be concentrating on
And incense is paleolithic. And I shall continue to enjoy it.
7. You are free to express your views candidly and forcefully provided you remain civil. Do not use the forums to send abuse, threats, personal insults or attacks, or purposely inflammatory remarks (trolling). Do not respond to such messages.
Nobody is going to stop you enjoying incense. I’m not sure that it being Palaeolithic is a good argument for it, though. In that case so would eating other animals and wearing animals skins (or just fig leaves). It is enough that you like it and that it doesn’t harm others or you.
I hate Gospel and all happy-clappy stuff. I like Old Roman chant, Gregorian chant, Byzantine chant, Russian chant, medieval music.
The Lutheran Schuetz’s Magnificat is great.
A scroll of the Magnificat in Latin by me in Gothic script and illuminated hangs in a Catholic Church in Preston. I did it when I was 15.
Another example of secularist fascism is the forcing of Muslim women in France to strip at the beach like western women do. If some people are modest, why should they be forced to dress scantily against their will?
In France this is also applied to men at swimming baths. They are not allowed, if portly, to wear loose swimwear, but are forced to wear the extra tight and scanty trunks handed out by staff. Otherwise they are forced to leave. Immodesty by diktat.
I knew you’d say that.
Let’s take thou shalt not kill. One of the 10 Commandments. This doesn’t stop the church from blessing warships, war planes, nuclear submarines or bombs. When fellow workers around the world are blown to bits by British bombs, at least god blessed them. When the Nazis bombed England no doubt their bombs were also blessed by god, so that’s alright then.
Thou shall not steal. Unless you’re a capitalist who fills up thy churches coffers.
A justification for people staving to death in excruciating agony, is that it’s the work of god.
Someone who has cancer, who is suffering in unimaginable pain, that is also the work of god.
But god is all seeing and healing?I have no god and I don’t follow anything or anyone. You are missing the point entirely.
I think Japan has the approach that is ideal. All customs and rites of the past found pleasing and harmless are preserved, without anyone believing anything.
This was how the educated ancient Romans understood religion. Belief didn’t matter. For the Japanese similarly, as for Oscar Wilde and myself, it’s about aestheticism and the freedom to be an aesthete.
You are missing the point entirely
I am none the wiser now, than when you started really. With your last remark, not sure it really matters to be honest. If you’re a socialist that’s what counts. My neighbour told me he is into ornithology? At first I was like ffs, then I was worried it was something strange? I was relieved that he likes birds the feather variety. He’s a photographer, and does arty things around birds, he does exhibitions where he sells his work.
I didn’t exactly waste my time entirely, as I have been on Twitter, liking the party tweets and making a few tweets in reply.If a liking for Church art and music attracts such vitriol and abuse, isn’t it evident that an actual practising religious believer interested in our case can expect similar and will be verbally thrashed mercilessly … for all talk of religious freedom? Way to attract people!
You are not being subjected to any abuse or vitriol by James or any party member.
One abusive post by a non-member and replies to it were removed by myself.
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Armed forces personnel are rejected, as are people who hold religious beliefs, or reformist ideas.
Nobody has stated anybody holds religious views. I have never attacked anyone who holds religious beliefs. Only putting what I believe is the party case….we oppose war and those who support it claiming to be against killing, as this is deemed as a ‘sin.’
I find religion tedious, similar to what was mentioned above.My main criticism of religion is that it has held back all of humanity in the spheres of science. We urge fellow workers to get off their knees.
I have never seen, heard a party member attack someone who holds religious views. Let me make this clear.
My main criticism of religion is that it has held back all of humility in the spheres of science
James
Hmmmm I think it is not quite so cut and dried as you suggest (BTW I assume you meant to type “held back all of humanity in the sphere of science”)
Natural theology or the religious study of nature prior to the emergence of modern science as we know it, though inspired by the desire to discover god’s purpose in creation, actually laid the basis for modern science by seeking out causal connections operating in the natural world. I am thinking of people like the 18th century parson-naturalist, Gilbert White, who was a pioneer in the field of ecology and many other such “gentleman scientists” as they were called
Or take the part of the world where I live – Spain. Under Moorish rule what was called the Golden Age of Islam, science flourished and Jews, Christians and Muslims all collaborated to produce some wonderful architectural structures, as in the city of Cordoba, in a social climate of relative tolerance. Here around Granada we are still benefitting from that marvellous innovation introduced under Muslim rule – the acequia system. This is the massive network of irrigation channels and pantanas (water deposits) that still tap the meltwater from the Sierra Nevada mountain range. Compared to the Christians after the 15th century “Reconquest”, the Muslims were lily-livered liberals (or at least part of the time). However, even the Christians were not so dumb as to abandon Muslim technology and though they expelled the Moors after the Morisco uprising in the Alpujarras valley south of Granada in the 16th century, they allowed 2 Moorish families to remain in each Alpujarran village to pass on their knowledge of the acequia system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellion_of_the_Alpujarras_(1568%E2%80%9371)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
I think it is important not to be to be too rigid about the relationship between religion and science / scientists. After all many eminent scientists are themselves religious. Of course there are cases were religious dogma can be downright anti-science – as in the debate on evolution vs creationism- but each case needs to be judged on its own merits
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