Practicing socialism: Holocracy and motivation and effort considerations.

[alanjjohnstone]

TWC, I take great umbrage at your audacity to determine what should and what should not be posted on this forum.I take exception, especially that you single out my own contributions to this forum which you clearly deem not of equivalent value as i suppose you believe your own possess. But that is your own personal prerogative. Some may well agree with you. Some might disagree.But your unnecessary and unwarranted sniping has done exactly what you did not wish to happen – create a distraction from this thread. Or did you expect my obeisance to your presumptuous post?  

[Anonymous]

Moderator , if you want, you can remove my name and my email from this forum as contributors, and you can do it right now. I can not be part of a so called socialist forum where members have to be submissive, and accept the hijacking of the forum by a right winger opportunist. who wants to penetrate capitalist valueFor similar reason I resigned from one of the Companion Party of the WSM because they were accepting as members peoples who support and vote for capitalist presidents,  wanted to penetrate capitalist value to the party, and peoples that want to run the party as a psychological clinic, or returning back to the time of the caveman,  and one person that thought that the party was an inheritance of the family.Socialist must  take stand even if they have to lose their head., we do not read romantic novels.  I would prefer to be marching on the streets with the working class, and not losing my times in this forum

[Anonymous]

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

twc wrote:

Nothing to do with socialism.

I disagree that Holocracy has nothing to do with socialism.it's an information tool that's extremely good at promoting socialistic ideas and practices in a business group in a capitalist society.  I think you need that if you're going to reach a majority of the poeple on the planet and convince them to support socialism.Without it you have a bunch of people in a company making decisions based on who gets paid the most in an authoritarian decision making hierarchy.   With it you have a bunch of people making decision based on structured association and a constitution that follows many of the principles of socialism. Holocracy is proposed as one of many information tools helpfull in developing the practice and habbits of thinking using communism and socialist principles.  

 Socialism can not be promoted by a software only, this is not a marketing body of ideas, we are not running a corporation,  we are not salesmen,  socialism has to be spread by socialists, or by workers armed with the principles of socialism in their brains. Do you sales pitch with somebody else

[robbo203]

Some comrades here, I think, need to gem up on How to Win Friends and Influence People.  I mean, really – this guy is just promoting what he sees as an "informational tool" but he has been jumped on and savaged for the privilege.  He has been accused amongst other crimes of being a rightwinger, a CIA spy and taking commission for selling the idea .  What next – ethnic cleansing? C'mon – chill out guys.  This is way over the top.  With holier-than-thou attitudes like this it is little wonder the WSM is struggling. It may very well be the case that holacracy is of no practical use as far as promoting socialism is concerned but do you really need to go about pointing this out in a manner that is so downright rude and unpleasant? If it happens to be the case that Steve is not a socialist or knows little about socialism – so what? Is this not a public forum?  Are non socialists not allowed to participate and to learn from the discussions they help to generate?Ironically, Marcos goes on about how the WSM yahoo group is more or less dead.  But it was he, as moderator of this group who was at least in part,  responsible for this decline.  He took it upon himself to evict one or two free marketeers at the time because he felt that they were diverting attention away from a discussion on  socialism,  A silly claim anyway because opposition to socialism or socialist ideas is actually an invitation to socialists to explain why our ideas are valid. As a result the forum went from being a lively arena of public debate to being as dull as dishwater. I bitterly opposed this decision as completely misguided and shortsighted – even undemocratic and against the sprit of democratic debate – and I was right to do so.  The fruits of the pudding are in the eating.  If you want to turn socialist forums into nothing more than an echo chamber for socialists only all you will hear is the few and steadily diminishing number of socialists voices getting fainter by the year. This is not a sign of confidence or belief in ourselves as socialists. It is a sign of weakness that we should see the need to take refuge in the narcissistic  comfort zone of our own dogmatic shells  Socialists can do better than that – a lot better

[Anonymous]

robbo203 wrote:

Some comrades here, I think, need to gem up on How to Win Friends and Influence People.  I mean, really – this guy is just promoting what he sees as an "informational tool" but he has been jumped on and savaged for the privilege.  He has been accused amongst other crimes of being a rightwinger, a CIA spy and taking commission for selling the idea .  What next – ethnic cleansing? C'mon – chill out guys.  This is way over the top.  With holier-than-thou attitudes like this it is little wonder the WSM is struggling. It may very well be the case that holacracy is of no practical use as far as promoting socialism is concerned but do you really need to go about pointing this out in a manner that is so downright rude and unpleasant? If it happens to be the case that Steve is not a socialist or knows little about socialism – so what? Is this not a public forum?  Are non socialists not allowed to participate and to learn from the discussions they help to generate?Ironically, Marcos goes on about how the WSM yahoo group is more or less dead.  But it was he, as moderator of this group who was at least in part,  responsible for this decline.  He took it upon himself to evict one or two free marketeers at the time because he felt that they were diverting attention away from a discussion on  socialism,  A silly claim anyway because opposition to socialism or socialist ideas is actually an invitation to socialists to explain why our ideas are valid. As a result the forum went from being a lively arena of public debate to being as dull as dishwater. I bitterly opposed this decision as completely misguided and shortsighted – even undemocratic and against the sprit of democratic debate – and I was right to do so.  The fruits of the pudding are in the eating.  If you want to turn socialist forums into nothing more than an echo chamber for socialists only all you will hear is the few and steadily diminishing number of socialists voices getting fainter by the year. This is not a sign of confidence or belief in ourselves as socialists. It is a sign of weakness that we should see the need to take refuge in the narcissistic  comfort zone of our own dogmatic shells  Socialists can do better than that – a lot better

 Have you seen the survey that he is running in the name of the Socialist Party of Great Britain ?  I am a member of the WSM and I have used the name of the Socialist Party and I have always tried to do it properly. I have great respect, appreciation and love for this organization and I am not going to let anybody to use its name for personal use, I have been thrown out of forums defending the Socialist Party, Have you done that ? Some of my emails have been sent to  agencies by right wingers I have seem many things in the discussion forum that you have not seen because your participation is sporadic, but there was a time before coming back to school that I was participating in many forums and  I saw many things that you have not seen, and I have a long list of contactsIn regard to the WSM forum, before I became the moderator I was already the moderator of another forum in the name of the WSM and that forum had many members and a large participation of peoples, and when I became the moderator of the yahoo forum the participation was already declining despite the fact the forum has 989 members, but none of the members of the WSM do not participate in the forum. The Socialist Standard was published in many forum in Latin America, and Spain, and alos Matt was sending copiesI was a memebr of your forum and in one occasion one of the moderator called my attention because I used the word Gringo, but he does not  know anything about Latin American history, and I know about Latin American history and politifcal groups pretty well, and the expression is used in different way thru the whole region, which means that he is only an ignorant. The word Gringo and Yankee is used all over, and the word came from Spain. I have sent articles of the WSM to Cuba, to a person who was in charge of a library, and she was part of the goverment,  There was only one person that was blocked in the forum, and he was an ex member of the SP who became an anarcho capitalist, and the other person who was with him was not blocked, even more I was the one who invited him to the forum before he became an anarcho capitalist, and he was planning to join the WSM, and then, he changed his mind, and he left the forum a few days ago, and I think that his email is being used to send spam to some members of the SP.Many peoples wanted to join the forum, but they did not write, or read in English, but I was able to send to them many translation that I have done. Have you translated any articles or pamphlets of the SP ? I have done that in order to send them to my contacts. I purchased two large 4k  monitors to translate documents.  I purchased a big laser monochrome printer to send copies to them by mailFor that forum, I have done what you have not done, and it was that before I became the moderator I sent more 700 invitations personally which mean that I have a long list of contacts and friends, and I have friends within the left movement. I do not need any lessons about how to make friends, I have a lot of friends, and peoples that I know since I was very young.( 50 years ) . I do not bend my principles in order to have friends. I have a different concept about friendship We have another forum that is in French and I am one of the moderator too, and the forum is complete dead, and personally I have sent invitation to several Haitians groups that I know and they have not respondedDue to those languages barriers I am reopening a new forum in three languages without any moderation, and I am going to use the translation that we have in English,  Spanish and Portuguese, and I am going to answer any question that they have when i document in English is published at the forum. Right now since I am taking class, I have not had time to send the invitations to my contacts.I know what I am doing

[twc]

Robbo, your sympathy is misplaced.In sympathy you are now signing up—sight unseen—to the terms and conditions of acceptable engagement stipulated by a domineering mentality that demands you write his text for him and demands that you trade your precious thoughts by time measurement.I assure you that my sole case against such domineering engagement has nothing to do with misplaced antipathy, but purely to caution that we are dealing with another “self-absorbed crank, sitting in his armchair at his keyboard, all day firing off quasi denial-of-service hijacks upon open discussion to filter it single-mindedly towards his sure-fire hobby-horse.”You have wasted 100 posts identically rebutting 10,000 such denial-of-service hijacks.  And you are now willingly signing up to tying your hands and repeating, for our benefit, your famous act of failing to befriend or influence.Can’t you appreciate that this domineering guy is simply unflinching?  We aim to win socialists;  not friends nor influence people!

[twc]

Agreed!He has transgressed the boundary of forum communication by hijacking it to solicit socialist member participation in capitalist (i.e. charitably, benignly non-socialist but, in actuality, malignantly anti-socialist) external surveys and publications, ostensibly for his own, professedly for our, personal edification and satisfaction.A perfect specimen of ignorance parading as sagacity.He has flouted universally agreed forum rules.  Ergo he has outstayed his welcome.Clear off!

[Brian]

It seems some users have failed to read the OP of this thread and would rather attempt to kill the messenger?"I'd like to see if we can get enough support to do a comprehensive critique of holocracy as a group. Here's a link to the holocracy constitutio. http://www.holacracy.org/constitution .  It's rather complex reading and maybe not the best way to understand Holocracy, but given the people here are pretty fluent in constitutional document type reading, maybe our SPGB community doesn't need to practice Holocracy to understand it?"  

[Anonymous]

Brian wrote:

It seems some users have failed to read the OP of this thread and would rather attempt to kill the messenger?"I'd like to see if we can get enough support to do a comprehensive critique of holocracy as a group. Here's a link to the holocracy constitutio. http://www.holacracy.org/constitution .  It's rather complex reading and maybe not the best way to understand Holocracy, but given the people here are pretty fluent in constitutional document type reading, maybe our SPGB community doesn't need to practice Holocracy to understand it?"  

The problem is not the software. I have used different of software that are much better than that. The problem is that the forum is being used for somehting else. Just go and they a look at the survey. We do not need a survey in this type of forum. We have what we need it just has to be imporved, we can use yahoo too, and it will do the same job,  We have peoples at the SPGB who are doing a pretty good job with our website. That is all what we need

[Anonymous]

That is a software for business application, and it is not free either, it is not a software like yahoo and Google that have been designed for discussion forum. What does he insist so much in the use of this software ? There is not software that are especially made for socialism or communism. We are the one who propagate the ideas. Why has he taking the liberty to create a survey in the name of the Socialist Party ?What did he send me a personal email saying that our website is based on archaic and obtuse philosophy ? If you want, you can continue hammering the same nail, but I have something else to do 

[Anonymous]

mcolome1 wrote:

We have peoples at the SPGB who are doing a pretty good job with our website.

[Brian]

mcolome1 wrote:

Brian wrote:

It seems some users have failed to read the OP of this thread and would rather attempt to kill the messenger?"I'd like to see if we can get enough support to do a comprehensive critique of holocracy as a group. Here's a link to the holocracy constitutio. http://www.holacracy.org/constitution .  It's rather complex reading and maybe not the best way to understand Holocracy, but given the people here are pretty fluent in constitutional document type reading, maybe our SPGB community doesn't need to practice Holocracy to understand it?"  

The problem is not the software. I have used different of software that are much better than that. The problem is that the forum is being used for somehting else. Just go and they a look at the survey. We do not need a survey in this type of forum. We have what we need it just has to be imporved, we can use yahoo too, and it will do the same job,  We have peoples at the SPGB who are doing a pretty good job with our website. That is all what we need

You don't have to complete the survey to offer a "comprehensive critique of holocracy". I personally, would like to see it on here rather than hidden away in a survey.  However remember such a critique should contain the good and bad points of holocracy.

[Anonymous]

Brian wrote:

mcolome1 wrote:

Brian wrote:

It seems some users have failed to read the OP of this thread and would rather attempt to kill the messenger?"I'd like to see if we can get enough support to do a comprehensive critique of holocracy as a group. Here's a link to the holocracy constitutio. http://www.holacracy.org/constitution .  It's rather complex reading and maybe not the best way to understand Holocracy, but given the people here are pretty fluent in constitutional document type reading, maybe our SPGB community doesn't need to practice Holocracy to understand it?"  

The problem is not the software. I have used different of software that are much better than that. The problem is that the forum is being used for somehting else. Just go and they a look at the survey. We do not need a survey in this type of forum. We have what we need it just has to be imporved, we can use yahoo too, and it will do the same job,  We have peoples at the SPGB who are doing a pretty good job with our website. That is all what we need

You don't have to complete the survey to offer a "comprehensive critique of holocracy". I personally, would like to see it on here rather than hidden away in a survey.  However remember such a critique should contain the good and bad points of holocracy.

You are naive too, and we have many naive peoples in this forum, but it looks like  we have one comrade in this forum that he is seeing what i can see too. Depth can be one inch, and it can one kilometer below the earth, and we are still in the surface of the problem, and when we go deeper we see moreThey say that the devil knows more by being old than by being the devil, and I have eagle eyes, and I am an old devil. Probably,  the old members of the Socialist Party during WWII did not have a romantic view about the capitalist society, and everything that is surrounded in this society, because they were on guard on front of the capitalist struggle, they did not trust in the state and its maneuvers. I have seen many things that you have not seen, and we both grew up  in two  different environmental.  Probably, you grew up within the Socialist Party, but my case is different, I grew up in this movement during difficult times, and within different organizations,  and a  variety  of different peoples, and I learned with old peoples,  and those times are coming back again, we are going to see more repression again, even in those countries who have proclaimed themselves as the cradle of the bourgeois democracy. I am always on guard in front of the class struggle, I never give up,  I am like an old fox that is in watch all the time.The problem is not the software, we have peoples within the Socialist Party that are also experts in software and they do their work in a very honest manner, and they know what they are doing,   and they do it for the development and spreading of socialist ideas without looking any type of compensation,  the problem is when those tools are being used by the business world and by peoples with business mentality, and I have been inside that world too, and I hate it too, and inside  that world there are not friends, everything is done for money. as one comrade wrote we are not here to make friends, we are here to make socialists. 

[Anonymous]

mcolome1 wrote:

Moderator , if you want, you can remove my name and my email from this forum as contributors, and you can do it right now. I can not be part of a so called socialist forum where members have to be submissive, and accept the hijacking of the forum by a right winger opportunist. who wants to penetrate capitalist valueFor similar reason I resigned from one of the Companion Party of the WSM because they were accepting as members peoples who support and vote for capitalist presidents,  wanted to penetrate capitalist value to the party, and peoples that want to run the party as a psychological clinic, or returning back to the time of the caveman,  and one person that thought that the party was an inheritance of the family.Socialist must  take stand even if they have to lose their head., we do not read romantic novels.  I would prefer to be marching on the streets with the working class, and not losing my times in this forum

MColome1,why not just ignore any thread I start or any of my comments in a thread?  You have the right to freely associate with me and the righ to refuse to freely associate with me.  You already have that right and can exercize it any time.  You're under no obligation as a member to read anything I write.  What you need is a "block this user button".  Disqus forums have a "block this user button" that wouild allow you to click on my name and choose "block this user".  I'm discussing the block user technology because it's part of my belief that our technology choices determine things relevant to socialism.  I thiink the abilty to choose who you associate with freely is a requriement for socialism and I think Disqus supports socialism better than this discussion forum software.  I'm not blaming the people who make SPGB, but I am pointing out the relevance of technology towards the socialist argument for us working people having discussions right now.  The convenient survey and the postcards are one of many technology and information workflow innovations I believe can advance the cause of socialism or should be studied by great socialist thinkers such as yourself.  

[Anonymous]

mcolome1 wrote:

The problem is not the software, we have peoples within the Socialist Party that are also experts in software and they do their work in a very honest manner, and they know what they are doing,   and they do it for the development and spreading of socialist ideas without looking any type of compensation,  the problem is when those tools are being used by the business world and by peoples with business mentality, and I have been inside that world too, and I hate it too, and inside  that world there are not friends, everything is done for money. as one comrade wrote we are not here to make friends, we are here to make socialists. 

I agree with this paragraph completely.  Thanks for taking your time to respond. this paragraph above was of value to me during our exchange of time and attention. 

[Author]

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