Practicing socialism: Holocracy and motivation and effort considerations.

[Anonymous]

twc wrote:

All of the advertised Holacracy sites I explored were designed to facilitate profit making businesses.[Quite so.  Profit making is the goal of all labour under capitalism.  Labour’s sole productive function is to expand the capital that sets it in motion.No matter how effectively the labour process is organized it always remains subservient to the expansion of the capital invested in it.If Holacratic organization impedes profit taking, it destroys its rationale for existing.  If Holacracy aids profit taking, it serves its essential capitalist purpose.  In neither case is it remotely socialist.But Holacracy may lubricate the socially necessary willingness on the part of the laborer to submit to being daily exploited by capital’s need for continual valorization.How the laborer conceives or misconceives capital’s domination over his/her working life activity is quite another matter, for workers are easily misled by organizational process restructuring solutions, without asking “solutions to exactly capitalist what?”Holacracy comes across as another, perhaps worthy (in the capitalist sense) methodology, in the mix of organizational structuring tools.  It is not socialist, it was never intended to be socialist, and its exemplar implementations are defiantly capitalist.

Yes, I agree with all that mostly.  Holocracy, by itself, does not meet the definition of socialism (especially if it's practiced in a capitalist society).  I appologize if I implied holocracy was equal to socialism.  I meant to argue that it is socialistic (like socialism) compared to typical organizational modelsOne of the argument made against capitalism it that it's self defeating and if followed to it's logical conclusion will result in communism. the argument presupposes that conflict and vested interest cause people to be pitted against each other with the result being a decrease in agregate value produced to the society. the converse of the argument is that socialism produced more societial value and is therefore superior to capitalism.  I am arging this is an emergent peice of evidence to support that argument. Part of my argument for holocracy is that it works within the capitalist system by exploiting capitalist idiology while still promoting socialistic thinking and behavior.  Capitalist call it an attempt to subvert capitalism for profit.  Capitalist call it communism routinely.  I call it an idea virus that infects a capitalist host and causes it to act in a socialist manner and train it's workers in the practices and ideology that are fertile material for emergence of socialism.You've heard perhaps that saying that "a capitalist will sell you the rope to hang himself with". If you agree with that and would like to see it happen, then Holocracy looks like a good rope for the job.  ps. I'm speeking metaphorically and don't support any actual hanging of actual people. 

[Anonymous]

gnome wrote:

mcolome1 wrote:

…and I have always used Linux or Unix for many years too. Microsoft is in my trash can, if peoples claim all the crashes from Microsoft, Bill Gates would be in a corner collecting money and playing with a guitar.

Spot on; my sentiment entirely. 

linux and unix are also products of capitalism.  Marx himself argued repeatedly that capitalism would produce the means for communism to flourish. Will you defend Linus and Unix against the charges leveled against holocracy?  

[Anonymous]

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

gnome wrote:

mcolome1 wrote:

…and I have always used Linux or Unix for many years too. Microsoft is in my trash can, if peoples claim all the crashes from Microsoft, Bill Gates would be in a corner collecting money and playing with a guitar.

Spot on; my sentiment entirely. 

Linux and Unix are also products of capitalism.  Marx himself argued repeatedly that capitalism would produce the means for communism to flourish. Will you defend Linux and Unix against the charges leveled against holocracy?  

He just extracted one idea, of a whole context of ideas, to explain one particular situation, That particular situation is that Microsoft is an inferior operational system That is not the point. All commodities in this society are produced in a society called capitalism, but this society from the bottom to the top and vice versa is controlled by the working class, the only thing is that we do not own the means of production. Linux and Unix are free software but when are applied to business they are used to produce profits, but Microsoft has a secret code, and it is business application of low quality, and its producers have gotten rich by selling junks. The so called socialists did not produce socialist products as the right wingers used to proclaimI have a memory of Elephants,  and in prior messages you have indicated that free software is a socialist software, and Wikipedia is also a socialist medium, but we have proven that it is incorrect, they are also capitalist medium, in the same way that,  the software that you are promoting is also a capitalist software applied to business in order to produce profits, it is not different to yahoo or Google, but both offer free discussion forums. I have used yahoo and Google to promote the socialist case. Redhat is a commercial Linux, but is free when it is Fedora, Suse Linux is free, but it is very expensive when it is used for commercial serversMarx also indicated that an old society is the midwife of a new society, but that new society can only can give birth to new society  by the action of the working class, and it is not born by itself, and it will not be  overthrown  by itself neither. Full developed capitalism is needed to create a society  of  free access, therefore, those coupons provided in the  so called socialist countries they are   an indication that capitalism was not fully developed in certain period of their development ,and they are  not societies of free access, therefore, they are not socialists as they claim, and socialism can not be established in backward economical conditions, and it can not  be established in one country, or in one region

[Anonymous]

mcolome1 wrote:

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

gnome wrote:

mcolome1 wrote:

…and I have always used Linux or Unix for many years too. Microsoft is in my trash can, if peoples claim all the crashes from Microsoft, Bill Gates would be in a corner collecting money and playing with a guitar.

Spot on; my sentiment entirely. 

Linux and Unix are also products of capitalism.  Marx himself argued repeatedly that capitalism would produce the means for communism to flourish. Will you defend Linux and Unix against the charges leveled against holocracy?  

 He just extracted one idea, of a whole context of ideas, to explain one particular situation, That particular situation is that Microsoft is an inferior operational system /quote]this particular situation is that capitalism is an inferior operating system. 

mcolome1 wrote:

That is not the point. All commodities in this society are produced in a society called capitalism, but this society from the bottom to the top and vice versa is controlled by the working class, the only thing is that we do not own the means of production. Linux and Unix are free software but when are applied to business they are used to produce profits, but Microsoft has a secret code, and it is business application of low quality, and its producers have gotten rich by selling junks. The so called socialists did not produce socialist products as the right wingers used to proclaim/quote]I agree that microsoft and capitalist produce junk, Holocracy itself was not developed under capitalism and was the brain child of a creative thinker like Marx.  They avoid being associated with communism because they are apealing to the capitalist, but they are not of the capitalist, for the capitalist and by the capitalist by any strech of the imagination.  I'm a User experience guy who can tell you exactly why in detail Microsoft produces junk because I've suffered from having to work at places like that in the design department getting my great ideas shot down because they didn't make a profit.  these were great ideas that helped the user and in general people in the user experience design field are politically and professionally trained to put the user first.  So my great ideas were ways of putting people before profits and that didn't work.  I have a lifetime experience with finding great information technology to solve problems in the volunteer and small business philanthropy areas that I'd like to share with people who think like I do.  I'm hoping that's you guys, so give it a postive glance and point out areas of agreement once in a while if you can.

mcolome1 wrote:

I have a memory of Elephants,  and in prior messages you have indicated that free software is a socialist software, and Wikipedia is also a socialist medium, but we have proven that it is incorrect, they are also capitalist medium, in the same way that,  the software that you are promoting is also a capitalist software applied to business in order to produce profits, it is not different to yahoo or Google, but both offer free discussion forums. I have used yahoo and Google to promote the socialist case. Redhat is a commercial Linux, but is free when it is Fedora, Suse Linux is free, but it is very expensive when it is used for commercial serversMarx also indicated that an old society is the midwife of a new society, but that new society can only can give birth to new society  by the action of the working class, and it is not born by itself, and it will not be  overthrown  by itself neither. Full developed capitalism is needed to create a society  of  free access, therefore, those coupons provided in the  so called socialist countries they are   an indication that capitalism was not fully developed in certain period of their development ,and they are  not societies of free access, therefore, they are not socialists as they claim, and socialism can not be established in backward economical conditions, and it can not  be established in one country, or in one region

Marx and the midwife was a great analogy, but what about siblings and cousins?  but anyway, we seem to going off focus wich maybe I shouid specify in the top first post more clearly? Debate : is holocracy adopted by capitalist a step in the right direction or a step in the wrong direction?  Capitalist business is adopting holocracy regardless of how we feel about it.  So what is our opinon of the news that capitalist organizations are adopting holocracy?  what if every capitalist business adopted holocracy?  would that be a step in the right direction or a step in the wrong direction?  

[Anonymous]

mcolome1 wrote:

All commodities in this society are produced in a society called capitalism, but this society from the bottom to the top and vice versa is controlled by the working class, the only thing is that we do not own the means of production. Linux and Unix are free software but when are applied to business they are used to produce profits, but Microsoft has a secret code, and it is business application of low quality, and its producers have gotten rich by selling junks. The so called socialists did not produce socialist products as the right wingers used to proclaimI have a memory of Elephants,  and in prior messages you have indicated that free software is a socialist software, and Wikipedia is also a socialist medium, but we have proven that it is incorrect, they are also capitalist medium, in the same way that,  the software that you are promoting is also a capitalist software applied to business in order to produce profits, it is not different to yahoo or Google, but both offer free discussion forums. I have used yahoo and Google to promote the socialist case. Redhat is a commercial Linux, but is free when it is Fedora, Suse Linux is free, but it is very expensive when it is used for commercial serversMarx also indicated that an old society is the midwife of a new society, but that new society can only can give birth to new society  by the action of the working class, and it is not born by itself, and it will not be  overthrown  by itself neither. Full developed capitalism is needed to create a society  of  free access, therefore, those coupons provided in the  so called socialist countries they are   an indication that capitalism was not fully developed in certain period of their development ,and they are  not societies of free access, therefore, they are not socialists as they claim, and socialism can not be established in backward economical conditions, and it can not  be established in one country, or in one region

Thanks for discussing linux and unix competively in terms of communism or capitalist in origin and usage.  you seem very technically skilled with computers.  Can you tell me the software the SBGB forum is running on?  I know it's not disqus style of commenting like at alternet.org where I have a lot of good coversatioins too.   it looks like sPGB is a wordpress or Bullitin Board interface.  I hate editing in this SGB forum compared with Disqus conversatioins, this forum sofware looks like a product of capitalism.  the WorldSocialism.org site as a whole looks much better and is easier to use than this discussion forum.  Can you critique the discussion forum for me like you did for linux and unix.  Also maybe a side by side comparison between the software running this website and holocracy if that's not comparing apples and oranges. thanks for your time and valuable criltiques.  I can't get this kind of detailed analysis from capitalist so I really appreciate having a community that can follow a complex chain of reasoning and opinioni intelligently on it in any way at all.  Capitalist don't seem to have developed opinons that consider anything farther into the future then the next quarters profit and loss statement.  that kind of discussion is SOOOO boring for me.  You can read abourt 5,000 comments of mine over the last 5 years on Diqus under Steve SanFrancisco if you want to know about my views and politics and how I talk with other capitalistst.  You people here at SPGB are a lot more fun to chat with. A lot of the time I hang out at alternet.org for news, but I watch the real news network a lot too, only they don't have commenting on their site and only through facebook, which I don't use much.  I've written about capitalism and communism in discussioins in my history if you look back far enough and care enough to get to know me better.  You'll see that I write a lot of things you agree with and probably a few things you disagree with too.  Most of my recent comment history is sadly filled with my epic battle against paid PR infiltrators from Monsantor or something that have been polluting the disucusion forums wiht propoaganda.  They really pissed me off with their capitalist misinformation and propaganda for Monsanto and GE products that I tracked down their network and outed them to the people they were telling their PR Lied to decieve.  I tend to write passionately on a subject for a few months and then drift to another topic for a week or two interest so if you don't see a comment relevant to your interest go back a few months or years and you'll see my honest viewpoints on almost every topic they write about at alternet.org or wired magazines website.  communism isn't the only thing in my life, it's just the thing I'm enjoying working with for a few months probably.  I'll lose interest after a while here if it doesn't seem interesting anymore and get passionate about some other topic like racism or building better labor robots to replace manual work and how that affects the economy and the people. that conversation might inteerest you here, but you'd probably not like the capitalist phrasing and incentives I use to promote it.  and you wouldn't be convinced by the socialistic considerations I bring up were socialistic enough.  Well, it's late at night and I'm tired, So here's my disqus profile for your consideration of me as a good conversation partner you might associate with freely https://disqus.com/by/stevewhetstone/  (ps. maybe the new SPGB discussion forum will have personal profiles or maybe I just didn't notice and fill mine out? is that what's been causing suspicion all this time? Do I have a suspiciously blank poster profile and I didn't even notice?  I feel dumb. is this one of those "oops, my bad" moments for me?)

[Anonymous]

on the related topic of practicing socialism with less effort and more motivation.  I'm redesigning your mailers for you to make them more socialist friendly.  I won't post the content I propose for your next mailer campaign print run because I think the mods might not like that.  But it's a fun project I wanted to do for myself whether you like it or not.  I can make a postcard mailer design that rocks and gets you guys attention and new members.  I came up with the idea while theorizing about how wouid socialist make a postcard mailer that followed socialist principles in it's content, wording and execution.  So I started with a design foundation of working in socialistic mindset which was great fun and came up with something I think you all might like.  Sharing is much easier today with google docs and you can contribute the design with me by changing the wording or making suggestions or yes, your favorite, you can criticize it too.  

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https://goo.gl/8hfH91 SPGB postcard survey design campain proposalThis is a rapid prototyping of design for the SPGB postcard.  NOTICE content on the google doc is not official or endorsed by SPGB in any way.  No one else knows about this but you and me and no permission of any kind has been granded for me to represent SPGB. I would not publish or mass distribute without approval using your name. this is not for profit and should not be treated as such. I'm a professional designer tech worker from the heart of the evil capitalist world who's defected with all their secrets.  You'll like what you read in the google doc if you just give it an open mind and read it for what it's worth. if you give it 5 minutes of your time with an open mind I'll promise to spend 10 minutes of my time considering a topic of your choice with an open mind.  (offer limited to 5 minutes per person and limit of 100 total cumulative minutes)

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Hey does anyone else have any other ideas for practicing socialism with less effort or motivating people to join our efforts?  in my google document "random thoughts" I talk about a growth strategy for getting new volunteers and contributors that migh interest you. for how I think we can use the postcard design I'm proposing towards that goal. I think we've heard enough to be convinced that Holocracy is not socialism or communism. You win that argument.  BUT that was just one idea. Can you come up with Any other ideas? it can be any idea you want as long as it's related to practicing socialism in our daily lives(as aposed to theories of socialism as a concept, wich have been well covered thank you), or it could be related to motivation and it's role in socialism and comparisons of motivation between capitalist and socialist society's.  PollVault.org is kind of cool.  the website allows you to upload the socialist ballot recomendations to their website so others can see it.  I wish someone would make a socialist  ballot for San francisco so I didn't have to guess how to vote.  the website allows you to see several balolot recomendations side by side and gives them all equal access.  So your your poor little socialist ballot gets the same presentation aon the website as the s the big money spending capitalist ballot.  I think Pollvault democratizes the distribution of voting guides in a way that is better than the mainstream media or price biased media outlets.  It's only one website and not a vote socialist magic wand.  But I think it helps and is a good concept to adopt and encourage use of by SPGB. I think it would make political action more effective if we used it.  Maybe someoen else reading this in san francisco can share their ballot recomendations with me for my convenience? if it's convenient I'll vote socialist more than if it's inconvenient for me to vote socialist. convienince won't change my mind, but does affect how I vote when I'm undecided.  Currently I favor the ballot recomendations made by "the san francisco league of pissed off voters".  I liked their voting guide and recomendations for the primary elections and they seem to be bernie fans, so if they say to vote for something I default to what they say.  So anyone want to review https://www.pollvault.com/ and let me know what they think of it from a comminist perspective? so. . . Debate : is pollvault.com adopted by capitalist a step in the right direction or a step in the wrong direction?  Capitalist people are adopting and using pollvault.com regardless of how we feel about it.  So what is our opinon of the news that people are adopting and using PollVault?  what if every person used PollVault?  would that be a step in the right direction or a step in the wrong direction towards achieving world socialism?  

[Anonymous]

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

twc wrote:

Nothing to do with socialism.

I disagree that Holocracy has nothing to do with socialism.it's an information tool that's extremely good at promoting socialistic ideas and practices in a business group in a capitalist society.  I think you need that if you're going to reach a majority of the poeple on the planet and convince them to support socialism.Without it you have a bunch of people in a company making decisions based on who gets paid the most in an authoritarian decision making hierarchy.   With it you have a bunch of people making decision based on structured association and a constitution that follows many of the principles of socialism. Holocracy is proposed as one of many information tools helpfull in developing the practice and habits of thinking using communism and socialist principles.  

You are always wearing  different hats. One day you say that certain software, and websites  are socialists, and another day you say that software are capitalist tools. One day you make a commentary off topic, and when others members of this forum answer to your off topic commentaries, then you answer saying that is an off topic theme. You are a  good candidate for jumping and running at  the Olympiad. Like they say:: I  am a very old monkey, to let another monkey to make fun of me First you came to this forum saying that you were not promoting a particular software to make money, but you are constantly advertising the same software, and saying that it is a capitalist tool, used on business  that can be used for socialism. You are like a car or insurance salesman sitting in an office advertising both products and then indicating that you are not making any profits or any commission.If Yahoo and Google and others software are free, and they are universal,  why are we going to adopt a software that we must pay a commercial  fee ?  We have what we need, and we are using the resources that we can use. I do not think that a business man will work for free, unless it is a monk, or a priest with a bow of poverty, like the Salesian or the Franciscan, or La Salle brothers, or the Trappist .Snowden indicated that there are a lot software used by the US  government to spy on others organizations, the right wingers of Venezuela have a a special software that they use in the discussion forum to create data banks including the IP of the usersLet me go and drink my 'Cortadito" and rest my case. This is a wasting of time. We have something better to deal with

[Anonymous]

mcolome1 wrote:

Let me go and drink my 'Cortadito" and rest my case. This is a wasting of time. We have something better to deal with

.I agree,  Lets talk about something I think you'll enjoy more. I think you like Talking Direct Political Action Now! i do too.   I have an idea for a political action campaign that will get you tons of new volunteers eager to join in your cause.  I'm hoping you could critique sections of it and fix them for me.  Your keen understanding of communism and socialism is needed now by me as a contribution according to your ability.  Can you fix my stupid mistakes (and there's a lot of them) because I really don't know stalin from marx or even seem to care enough to remember the difference or fix my typos. I know my lack of undersanting of marixist or socialst or communist or whatefer pinciples has been infuriating for you, but it's convinced me your the right guy to proofread and edit some relevant sections of the postcard mailer.  I want to make ssure that the text I put in as filler and suggestion is replaced by stuff that measts the approval of someone as well informed as you. So edit and fix my mistatments and misconceptions to your and my benefit.  I apoint you editor of my postcard design project.  I made it in a google doc and gave you editing permission already.  Why not spend 10 minutes to look at it and in return I will spend 10 minutes reading whatever you want me to read.  If you spend an hour reading it then I'll spend an hour reading something you pick for me. I propose a an exchange of Time at equal value between us.  So I'll trade my time as a favor for your time?  think about what you want me to read for 10 minutes or however long you spend on reading my postcard design and adding value to the design we are proposing.Thanks, and let me know what you think at .https://goo.gl/QswLlN  .  

[Anonymous]

mcolome1 wrote:

You are always wearing  different hats. One day you say that certain software, and websites  are socialists, and another day you say that software are capitalist tools. One day you make a commentary off topic, and when others members of this forum answer to your off topic commentaries, then you answer saying that is an off topic theme. You are a  good candidate for jumping and running at  the Olympiad. Like they say:: I  am a very old monkey, to let another monkey to make fun of me

I'm sorry about bouncing all over different topics in your view.  I feel they're all related in workign under the premis of technological determinism to argue for the claim that technology decisions can affect the timing of the revolution and evaluating different technologies to rank their effectiveness at producing cultural change, their ability to alter our class motives and the efficiency of taking types of actions such as free association.  I'm also applying a very broad and inclusive definition of technology to include ideas and modes of thinking such as the mode of thinking in an organization running holocracy compared to the mode of thinking in a capitalist system and compared to the mode of thinking in a socialist system. Other topics like poll vault or marketing campaigns I deem relevant for the ability to change the user experience. I am a user experience designer by trade and that's how I think about things a lot so that's my abilityt to contibute to socialism.  To each according to their ability.

mcolome1 wrote:

First you came to this forum saying that you were not promoting a particular software to make money, but you are constantly advertising the same software, and saying that it is a capitalist tool, used on business  that can be used for socialism. You are like a car or insurance salesman sitting in an office advertising both products and then indicating that you are not making any profits or any commission.If Yahoo and Google and others software are free, and they are universal,  why are we going to adopt a software that we must pay a commercial  fee ?  We have what we need, and we are using the resources that we can use. I do not think that a business man will work for free, unless it is a monk, or a priest with a bow of poverty, like the Salesian or the Franciscan, or La Salle brothers, or the Trappist .

I agree your skepticism is reasonable, but let me clear up a few points.  1) one it is free.  you can run holocracy out of google docs and in fact that's a great way to customize it and learn to use it.  the subscription fee to the holocracy glass frog quick start forum is just one of the methods for implementing holocracy in whole or in part. Just thinking about how holocracy works is a good exercise for most capitalist in thinking about class and what that means. Do you want to run Holocracy out of google docs with me? I've never actually had a chance to use the comunicaion practices and principles of the holocracy constitution and Holocracy as a working solution is still new as a baby compared to marx. I don't know for sure if Holocracy is a threat to socialism or an ally. Can you oppine on that question?  would the world be better of if Holocracy never existed?  Or don't? You can drop the holocracy arguments if you're just repeating yourself, but if you have something new to say about holocracy that fine and I'm willing to spend my time reading what you want to say, even if it has no value for me and is not "according to my needs" at this time. 

mcolome1 wrote:

Snowden indicated that there are a lot software used by the US  government to spy on others organizations, the right wingers of Venezuela have a a special software that they use in the discussion forum to create data banks including the IP of the users

MColome1, are you seriously accusing me of being a government spy or something similar?  LOL. Just tell me if you realy sincerly believe that is a possibility. Please, because it's funny and makes me laugh.  I gave you my link to my "Steve SanFrancisco" Disqus comment history archive for the last 5 years.  If you can't vet a community member after they give you several thousand comments on all topics at alternet.org then you shouldn't be in the business of looking for Spy's and you're probably just upset because I called your precious obscure citation a bit of "obtruse archaic English". Why would a spy waste his time on you? you aren't that important to get a spy and I'm not remotely a recruit candidate for the spy agencies. You're starting to make me concerned about you, with your paranoid comments..  

[Anonymous]

this thought on the topic of holocracy came to me from another critique in ai related duscussion.  

Quote:

 t appears Holacracy is another top down management structure, albeit with a form of goverance which filters feedback through a circle of roles where meetings are in reality brainstorming sessions so that roles are continually adjusted with the dynamics of changing circumstances. "Holacracy defines the organization as ”an entity that exists beyond the people, with its own purpose to enact and with work to do beyond just serving the people doing that work” (p. 148). This is also why Holacracy isn’t a governance process ”of the people, by the people, for the people”, but ”of the organization, through the people, for the purpose” (p. 34). Holacracy differentiates ”between the human community and the organizational entity” (p. 149)and between the ”role and soul” (pp. 42–46). To summarize, ”Holacracy’s systems and processes are about continually helping the organization find its own unique identity and structure to do its work in the world, while protecting it from human agendas, egos, and politics.” (p. 199). Still, the organization needs human beings to energize and enact all its roles."https://www.amazon.co.uk/Holacracy-Management-System-that-Redefines/dp/0…In a socialist society there will be  no differentiates ”between the human community and the organizational entity” (p. 149).  Indeed without the human community the organisation is a non-entity.

any thougths on this critique? do you agree or disagree with this critique? 

[Anonymous]

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

mcolome1 wrote:

Let me go and drink my 'Cortadito" and rest my case. This is a wasting of time. We have something better to deal with

.I agree,  Lets talk about something I think you'll enjoy more. I think you like Talking Direct Political Action Now! i do too.   I have an idea for a political action campaign that will get you tons of new volunteers eager to join in your cause.  I'm hoping you could critique sections of it and fix them for me.  Your keen understanding of communism and socialism is needed now by me as a contribution according to your ability.  Can you fix my stupid mistakes (and there's a lot of them) because I really don't know stalin from marx or even seem to care enough to remember the difference or fix my typos. I know my lack of undersanting of marixist or socialst or communist or whatefer pinciples has been infuriating for you, but it's convinced me your the right guy to proofread and edit some relevant sections of the postcard mailer.  I want to make ssure that the text I put in as filler and suggestion is replaced by stuff that measts the approval of someone as well informed as you. So edit and fix my mistatments and misconceptions to your and my benefit.  I apoint you editor of my postcard design project.  I made it in a google doc and gave you editing permission already.  Why not spend 10 minutes to look at it and in return I will spend 10 minutes reading whatever you want me to read.  If you spend an hour reading it then I'll spend an hour reading something you pick for me. I propose a an exchange of Time at equal value between us.  So I'll trade my time as a favor for your time?  think about what you want me to read for 10 minutes or however long you spend on reading my postcard design and adding value to the design we are proposing.Thanks, and let me know what you think at .https://goo.gl/QswLlN  .  

I think that I said: I rest my case. I have better things to worry about. I do not answer any type of survey, we are not for sale.If you want to know about Stalin, read his biographer Isaac Deutscher. or read an aritcle from the WSM,The difference between Stalin and Trostky, it is like the difference between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump: Two different style of management, of how to exploit the working class.We do not have to look for the 5th leg of the cat. Period

[twc]

What sense of entitlement!  • You write my text for me!  • You correct my spelling for me!    —Well, it’s ‘Holacracy’ not ‘Holocracy’.  • You make your case for your socialism    on my terms at my demand!What condescension!  What arrogance!  What modestly confessed superior intelligence!A self-absorbed crank, sitting in his armchair at his keyboard, all day firing off quasi denial-of-service hijacks upon open discussion to filter it single-mindedly towards his sure-fire hobby-horse.As mcolome1 says, we’ve met your type specimen before, and the encounter ends in ignominy, and tears.You’ve alerted us to Holacracy.  Thank you.The Party membership makes up its own mind democratically, and not at the behest of unsolicited recommendation by a non-member whose febrile imagination merely asserts its beneficial socialist character.Marx and Engels, on separate occasions, adopted the analogous approach of the wily shopkeeper who lives by sizing up customers not by what they assert nor how they estimate themselves.Go seek your need elsewhere for personal satiety through duping others along the path to salvation by continual bullying into submission, but not the Socialist Party.

[Anonymous]

twc wrote:

What sense of entitlement!  • You write my text for me!  • You correct my spelling for me!    —Well, it’s ‘Holacracy’ not ‘Holocracy’.  • You make your case for your socialism    on my terms at my demand!What condescension!  What arrogance!  What modestly confessed superior intelligence!A self-absorbed crank, sitting in his armchair at his keyboard, all day firing off quasi denial-of-service hijacks upon open discussion to filter it single-mindedly towards his sure-fire hobby-horse.As mcolome1 says, we’ve met your type specimen before, and the encounter ends in ignominy, and tears.You’ve alerted us to Holacracy.  Thank you.The Party membership makes up its own mind democratically, and not at the behest of unsolicited recommendation by a non-member whose febrile imagination merely asserts its beneficial socialist character.Marx and Engels, on separate occasions, adopted the analogous approach of the wily shopkeeper who lives by sizing up customers not by what they assert nor how they estimate themselves.Go seek your need elsewhere for personal satiety through duping others along the path to salvation by continual bullying into submission, but not the Socialist Party.

This guy is mono thematic, and he inserts his own personal  obsession on every topic, he is trying to pull the forum toward his business practice, that is reason why I told him that he was the perfect candidate for the next Olympiad. In the name of the so called freedom of expression we can not change the pass and the purpose of this forum which is to educate the workers on the basis of socialist principles. real socialism, no the bourgeois garbage of mixing capitalism with an strange form of socialism. I only like vinegar and oil on my salad. The Socialist Party demarcated its ideological field more than 100 years ago, we have survived thru all kind of ideological struggles, we even has lasted longer than the Bolshevik Party, and our fundamentals are stronger and solid, and nobody has been also to shake our foundations, therefore, we know what we want, and we know what we are looking for. We use what is available according to our resources, but it is done thru own collective of peoples who wants a new society free of profits, and free of the stupidly and emptiness of the world of business practiceWe can not be used as Guinea pig on a commercial adventure by answering a stupid survey, which we do not know what they are going to do with those data, we can be used as a bank data, and use our personal information for any kind of purposes. . I already started to receive some unsolicited  email from several software companies,  I have already blocked them and reported them as spam. I do not know who gave to these peoples two of my email address, I am the ones who select my own friendsThe Socialist Party of Great Britain should start to wear its iron shoes, because we should not  permit a person to  use our name to propagate his own conceptions using the prestige of the socialist party, and spread some kind of survey thru Google. We are a serious political party who has never collaborated with the ruling class, and we have never supported any bandit of the capitalist class, and our name can be used for any malicious purposes.Frankly, I will defend the socialist party, here on earth, on another planet, or in front of a shooting squad, and I will not let anybody to put mud on top of this organizations composed of several companion parties and individual dedicated to the cause of the working class. We are small but we do not fool around with our objectivesI do not want to get involve in this business of the moderator, but I think that it is time to smell the coffee. In the forum of the WSM we try to keep our house clean, and we always try to maintain the discussion toward the socialist principles. This member of the forum is not even a member of the Socialist Party and he wants to give order to us, like we are his little children. We do not even have leaders inside the partyCASE CLOSED.  If you want, you can send me a warning

[moderator1]

Reminder: 14. Rule enforcement is the responsibility of the moderators, not of the contributors. If you believe a post or private message violates a rule, report it to the moderators. Do not take it upon yourself to chastise others for perceived violations of the rules.

[twc]

For once, alanjjohnstone, don’t muddy the waters by interposing your newsfeed newsworthy news journalistic copy atop these postings, and so deprive them of the oxygen, scarce enough, the issue needs.I, like mcolome1, totally independently of each other, take full responsibility for this our socialist stance.Let people ponder our considered position.

[Author]

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