Podcast on Kautsky
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Lenin concept of the vanguard party came from the conception of vanguardism, and vanguardism already existed within the social democrats organizations and the second international during the time of Kautsky
The main feature of Lenin vanguard party is the so called democratic centralism, and the central committee which is the same conception of Lasalle, to control workers and members from the top to the bottom. but it is vanguardism
We have an article indicating that Engels would not accept to be a member of a social democrat organization.
The Bolshevikization of the Leninist parties started during the time of Stalin which was different to sovietism since they started during the time of Lenin and Martov was able to prove that it was not an international phenomenon to be imposed as a model to other nations.
Lenin wanted to create a temporary measure because he knew that it contradicted Marx self liberation of the working class.
They knew what socialism really is but they continued with the same life for more than 75 years, they had to do it, otherwise it would have shown to the world that they were wrong since the very beginning
We have an article indicating that Lenin recognized or admitted that there was not different between the soviet state and the czarist state.
The main problem was that the Socialist Party at the very beginning was not very critical about Karl Kautsky and the SLP of America did the same thing
I thought it was generally agreed that Lenin got his idea of a revolutionary organisation as one of professional revolutionaries organised on top-down military lines from previous anti-Tsarist Russian revolutionaries such as Tchakev and Ogarev rather than from the German Social Democratic Party and Lasalle.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Tkachev
I see that, again, Draper disagrees but Lenin was one of that section of the Russian “intelligentsia” that turned from seeing the peasantry as the mass basis for overthrowing Tsarism to seeing the working class as this and became “Marxists”.
That the Social Democratic parties of Europe were not organised on this basis doesn’t exonerate them from socialist criticism. It is just that our criticism of them is different — basically, that in practice they were merely parties seeking political democracy and social reforms within capitalism, reformists who believed that the working class condition could be improved and eventually ended by parliamentary legislation.
But you are right. That in the end Kautsky probably did see “socialism” as some sort of democratically-run state capitalism.
They are also saying that Lenin was influenced by Georgi Plekhanov. Leninists do not want to accept that they are Lasalleans and that Lenin also was influenced By Kautsky. The original conception of Populism came from Russia and Plekhanov was one of their theoreticians, they considered that the peasants were the leading class of the revolution, and Lenin was also influenced by the Russian populists, and of his brother was a populist
We have an article indicating that Bolshevism is a combination of Kautsky vanguardism and Trotsky theory of the permanent revolution, and we know that Lenin accepted Trotsky theory, and also we know that Lenin accepted several of the theories of Nikolai Bukharin, therefore Lenin was influenced from several sources
Probably, we must write a new preface to several of our articles as Marx and Engels did to several of their works to correct their mistakes, or a new pamphlet about vanguardism
We have also another article saying that the conception of the vanguard party ( from top to the bottom ) came from the French Jacobin. The whole conception of vanguardism came from bourgeois thinkers and intellectuals all the way back to the French bourgoise revolution, it is a populist peasantry conception
https://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/1963/lenin-vanguard.htm
This Leninist rejected the vanguard party but he did not reject Leninism, therefore, he did not reject vanguardism, and he does not want to accept that the vanguard party to lead is a central conception of Leninism, therefore, vanguardism and vanguard party are related, or the vanguard party came from vanguardism, it is the same case of Dunayeskaya who also rejected the vanguard party and Trotsky, but she never rejected Leninism and Trotskyism completely. It is a difficult task for Leninist to reject Leninism completely from its root, if they do it their whole world will fall apart.
PS After all Karl Kautsky made more contributions to Marxism and socialism than Lenin and the Bolsheviks, and all the followers of Leninism. We have several pages dedicated to the works of Kautsky and also we have several critiques, as we said: We do not care about the man, we care about his contribution
I suppose that in the end it comes down to which you think is worse : pro-worker reformism or bourgeois revolutionism? At least the first is a spontaneous and understandable outcome of conditions in developed capitalism. The second is an import from quite different, backward political conditions.
If I have to make a choice between Karl Kautsky conceptions and contributions to socialism, ( despite his mistakes ) and Vladimir Lenin conceptions ( I do not care about the individuals ) I would pick up Karl Kautsky. I have read several of his works and they sound closer to Marx and Engels, that is the reason why at the beginning the old members of the Socialist Party were influenced by his ideas.
You did a good summary on this book review:
PS The case of Kautsky is similar to the case of Julius Martov, both were defamed by Vladimir Lenin without analyzing their contributions to socialism and Marxism
“The young bloggers are commenting on Kautsky’s Chapter IV.”
I guess age is relative. But these young podcasters are all either professional lecturers or post-doc students. Hardly teenagers.
“It’s fascinating to hear how Kautsky’s 19th century social-democratic socialism pleasantly shocks the young commentators, and how much of it rings true in the 21st century to people, presumably schooled to see “socialism” through a Leninist lens.”
Yes it’s interesting to listen to things like this to try and get some kind of gauge of what people “out there” are thinking. Though I think the presumption of learning about Marx through Leninism is increasingly outdated. One of the presenters says an influence is Raymond Geuss, who was a lecturer at Cambridge – His lectures on Marx are actually very good, and are not derived from some kind of Marx = Lenin presumption. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfqdvDnX3lbAGzd770mJOFyRI4Khz50Uq
Leninism is being questioned by leninists and there is a revival about Marx real concept of socialism Outside of this forum there are many forums questioning state capitalism and Leninism
The MLP USA questioned Stalin and enver hoxha and Mao and the party was dissolved
We must get out from our little world and participate in other people forum otherwise we are going to spend our whole life debating among ourselves
We need young peoples in this organization, we are going old and we are going to die, and the legacy of the SPGB must be passed to the younger generation
https://www.marxists.org/espanol/kautsky/index.htm
This is the archive of Karl Kautsky in the Spanish language.
I am going to translate the three pamphlets that we published in our website
I was planning to do a PDF translation because they have a very bad copy of the Eufert program and it is very old. I am just going to translate the SPGB introduction
I just re-read that introduction and see that the term “Society of the future” was used at one point, to mean just that.
We must get out from our little world and participate in other people forum otherwise we are going to spend our whole life debating among ourselves
It’s already happened matey. Almamater is debating with Almamater who in turn is debating with, let me see now……..oh, surprise surprise, it’s Almamater.
An then the moderator want me to keep my mouth shut, and this gossiper and lumpen continue with the same diatribes and putting her nose on everything that does not concern to her
I have just finished reading a book I mentioned on another thread “Karl Kautsky on Democracy and Republicanism” translated by Ben Lewis. There is a cheaper version published by Haymarket books.
It is worth reading as he gives a defence of the revolutionary use of parliament that is in line with the SPGB view.
There is also a passage on Kautsky’s supposed vanguardism. It seems he has suffered from a bad translation. Kautsky’s argument was that socialist consciousness couldn’t automatically arise from within purely economic struggles, not that it couldn’t arise from within the working class in general. Lenin’s vanguardism represents a break, not a continuation of, his adherence with the Kautsky’s teachings.
Ironically perhaps, this is how the Socialist Standard first interpreted,in 1933, what Lenin was saying.
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