Pessimism or Hope

[alanjjohnstone]

Is it possible to be neither supportive nor condemnatory but simply to introduce another option and advance its case alone.Would a doctor prescribe faith-healing, and hope that it brings a miracle recovery?Would the doctor undermine what placebo effect such might have on the patient but ridiculing that alternative therapy?Or would the doctor simply concentrate on getting the patient to follow the recommended treatment by describing its benefits and curative powers? I have argued previously along the lines that we should be presenting a much clearer projection of the alternative society we advocate as a solution. 

[Anonymous]

Oppose the working class in this life and reunite in paradise? "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."

[SocialistPunk]

Young Master Smeet wrote:

SocialistPunk wrote:

My apologies YMS.I did say the low membership issue is a hindrance when it comes to orgainising such publicity drives.

Exctly, and we are organising them, at level approproate to our means and membership.

Then why come out with the following eye opener, in the first place?

Young Master Smeet wrote:

5) It would not move socialism one step nearer, nor improve the class struggle, objective conditions and class relations outweigh anythign we could add to the fight.

[LBird]

SocialistPunk wrote:

Then why come out with the following eye opener, in the first place?

Young Master Smeet wrote:

5) It would not move socialism one step nearer, nor improve the class struggle, objective conditions and class relations outweigh anythign we could add to the fight.

[my bold]Because YMS wishes to avoid the view that 'consciousness' is an 'objective condition', which not only must exist, but also Communists must help to develop within the working class.YMS, like the rest of the 'materialists/physicalists', holds to the bourgeois ideology that 'matter' will, one day, talk to humans, and that 'material conditions' will convince workers.It's the belief that 'rocks talk to humans', and that no social consciousness is involved in 'knowing' the 'material'.Thus, the nasty issue of "workers' democracy" can be neatly sidestepped, by the 'knowing elite' who supposedly have access to 'Truth' in physics and maths.This is the belief and method of Lenin, out of Engels. It is essentially a bourgeois and anti-worker view of 'reality', a 'reality' that can't be changed, and denies Marx.

[Anonymous]

LBird wrote:

 the view that 'consciousness' is an 'objective condition', which not only must exist, but also Communists must help to develop within the working class.

As a materialist I agree with this statementI cant understand why your post was flagged as it is very pertinent to the discussion. I continue to be disturbed by SPGB members trying to control and prevent open debate and rather than flag your post they could have explained the problem they have with it.The objective conditions for socialism do not exist while class consciousness is absent

[LBird]

Vin wrote:

LBird wrote:

 the view that 'consciousness' is an 'objective condition', which not only must exist, but also Communists must help to develop within the working class.

As a materialist I agree with this statement

The issues for you to figure out, Vin, are1. why call 'consciousness' material, when to any worker, ideas are not material? It only confuses workers, rather than helps them to develop; and2. why use material when that is the very term that the comrades you disagree with, use themselves? Can't you see that there is a connection between the use of that term and the opposition to your (and mine) position?

Vin wrote:

I cant understand why your post was flagged as it is very pertinent to the discussion. I continue to be disturbed by SPGB members trying to control and prevent open debate and rather than flag your post they could have explained the problem they have with it.

If 'matter' talks to them, who am I to say it doesn't? Clearly, I'm just a troublemaker who must be silenced, rather than a worker experienced in showing charlatans up, for what they are.

Vin wrote:

The objective conditions for socialism do not exist while class consciousness is absent

Yes, because the only meaning that 'objective' can have for humans is 'socially objective'. The alternative is 'physical, outside of being, objective', which is precisely what you are arguing against, Vin: the notion of 'materialism'.

[moderator1]

Reminder: 1. The general topic of each forum is given by the posted forum description. Do not start a thread in a forum unless it matches the given topic, and do not derail existing threads with off-topic posts.

[Young Master Smeet]

SocialistPunk wrote:

Then why come out with the following eye opener, in the first place?

I was talking about the party getting involved in campaigns and struggles of the working class.  But, the bottom line is there's not much we can do to advance the cause of socialism, except gop on expounding it and clarifying the line of march.

[Anonymous]

I would really love to know which 'democrat 'is flagging the posts. You are really doing the image of the party no good. Shouldn,t a reason be given? You are disrupting the free flow of discussion. 

[SocialistPunk]

YMSI wasn't talking about the SPGB getting involved in reformist campaigns. Heaven forbid the SPGB ever get involved with the "struggles of the working class". If you go back over my earlier posts, you will find that I was not suggesting the SPGB involve themselves in such campaigns. I was on about the SPGB organising and waving the anti-capitalist banner. I also made it clear the limited numbers of members makes organising such events problematic.In the meantime, if the party can't organise them, then tag along on someone elses.There's nothing wrong with the party handing out leaflets at demos, but as JDW pointed out earlier, media coverage of demos never focused on a leaflet. I think it was Vin who suggested banners with slogans on such as "an end the wages system" would stand out among the usual stuff. Wherever possible the party should be waving a banner as well as handing out leaflets.Regarding advancing the cause of socialism. As has been pointed out by both sides, there's no instant solution, no one tactic that will bring socialism any closer. All opportunities must be taken when available. If that means waving a socialist banner at an anti austerity demo, then so be it.

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