Pessimism or Hope
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An issue taken up by the working class via demonstrations and protest possibly leading to a back down by the government received four responses and they were by the usual moaners.https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/class-struggle-and-tax-creditsCompare this to 84 responses on Paul Masons book.Many of my friends and relatives are having their income slashed and this is what they want to take about . Perhaps they want to find out about this party cos they seemed interested>picture of the 'Socialist Party' with a massive banner calling for unity for socialismWhere are we?
The whole attititude of the SPGB is that we don't want to be seen marching with workers who are not socialist.We don't even want to give a friendly smile to them, they are either clowns or anti-working classAnd we forget that it is the very same workers that we want to organise for socialism.Attack the majority you will be left alone by the majority. edit: Perhaps workers may dismiss the 'out with the tories' banners and be curious to know about the men and women carrying 'No more reform parties, Revolution Now'
Vin wrote:We don't even want to give a friendly smile to them, they are either clowns or anti-working classThis is just not true. When was the last time you actually went on a demonstration or sat on a stall with fellow comrades?
DJP wrote:Vin wrote:We don't even want to give a friendly smile to them, they are either clowns or anti-working classThis is just not true. When was the last time you actually went on a demonstration or sat on a stall with fellow comrades?
What about the obnoxious sticker at HO and the 'hateful **** from a worker very close to our viewsI am talking about this forum, DJP. Dont want to drag any of that upAnd I am as guilty as the rest of us in getting carried away arguing with 'opponents' . But it is time for a new approach.
Vin wrote:What about the obnoxious sticker at HO and the 'hateful **** from a worker very close to our viewsHow do you know she was "very close to our views"? Most likely the work of a lone nutter who felt their holy cow had been criticised…
DJP wrote:Vin wrote:What about the obnoxious sticker at HO and the 'hateful **** from a worker very close to our viewsHow do you know she was "very close to our views"? Most likely the work of a lone nutter who felt their holy cow had been criticised…
No it wa a follower of mine on twitter who has debated at HO. By the way I was talking about two seprate insults. And what's wrong with being a 'lone nutter'
DJP wrote:jondwhite wrote:I am optimistic about materialism replacing determinism.All 'determinism' means is 'every event has a cause'.All 'materialism' means is 'everything is matter'.So I don't know what you where trying to say above and I don't think you said what you thought you where saying…
So were not aware that the reference was to historical matralism and the class struggle?
Young Master Smeet wrote:SocialistPunk wrote:2) How would organising, say an anti-capitalist demo, confuse the SPGB message with an anti-capitalist message? I'm not talking about organising anti-austerity or save our NHS events. Those are clearly reformist requests. But an anti-capitalist orgainised event, demo etc, would likely attract some sympathetic minds. I did previously state that the various demos attract publicity for the groups doing the organising. It's advertising.We do that, all the time. 6 men and a dog turn up and we chat to them.
Another non answer YMS. I hope this is not going to be a become a habit.
I might as well say my piece now and make it pertinent to the November London Climate Change march…which i am led to believe will be very largeJonW –
Quote:I've seen many media reports (to vast audiences bigger than the demos themselves) with banners but never one highlighting a leaflet…Actually, this is something we ourselves have experience of directly. Remember a few years back and the surprise and the impact upon members here when they saw that Zeitgeist Movement's "Abolish Money" banner at the head of a protest and for many of us it was what first drew our attention to them. No doubt my previous pleas for new colourful banners dedicated to climate change have gone unheeded. But recall…wasn't eitgeist's basically a white sheet with a painted slogan. If we are not permitted by conference decisions to march alongside fellow workers the surely we can pin-point strategic eye-catching vantage point along th route to stand with our banners catch the eye of those who pass by. I think it has passed into Party legend now but Glasgow Br did just that…with a banner that declared a CND march would solve nothing and was a waste of time. Perhaps not the sentiments that got us sympathy…but striking enough to be cited in a book a few decades later. We have always leafetted protests and demonstrations and i'll be brutally honest – our leaflets simply don't stand out. I have often said that we should indeed leaflet a protest…not with one but with a variety of leaflets, in different writing styles. Read the COP21…most of it is teaching our grannies to suck eggs. Those on the march know perhaps better than us about the technical details of climate change as in
Quote:Most scientists in the field take the view that it has mainly been caused by the increase in the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide in the atmosphere largely as a result of the burning of the fossil fuels, coal, oil and gas. If this is the case, then one part of any solution has to be cut back on burning these fuels.is simply being a little condescending to those marching. We are leafletting the converted and the thing those participating are missing is our socialist solution and the condemnation of capitalist palliatives. It is no good mentioning those in the passing…we have to highlight it and express it as forcefully and in as many different ways as we can. We can't express our case in just one short text , no matter how pithy it can be drafted…And i'm sure some have noted that in the past i also say we should be distributing 4-sided newspaper style news-sheets which features several different articles and a variety of graphics to present some in depth analysis.
Quote:The idea that walking among hundreds or thousands of workers with a banner calling for 'abolition of the wages system' is cheerleading or offering critical support is the guilt by association fallacy.We have to make our presence felt when there is a huge crowd. Then we can make our case known. How can half a dozen hard-pressed volunteers do that…well, with banners and flags and bugles and whistles and a lot of noise….I remember being on a Falklands War protest and i think some Sparticus Leaguers manage to turn the protest into a pro-Argentina march using megaphones so that all the passer-bys got that erroneous impression…it was effective…even if in a very negative…When did the Party last take a mega-phone (better still one of those very much improved small portable PA system now available) along to a protest and mount a soap-box to address the participants on the fringes of the rally when people got bored with the usual cliches from the platform speakers. (I think YMS once took advantage of that facility which was offered by one of our rival organisations on one march.) I am and i don't think anybody else are suggesting anything beyond our capabilities…we are not demanding the impossible to coin a well known phrase. Simple things that are relatively cheap is possible.Being more adventurous why not make a vox-pop video when we attend demos…stopping marchers and asking for their impressions of our own solution. Not my idea but something that another very small group in America have done effectively…Check their street video clipshttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVh9o-sVDHV9XmE6hRIlU3wFor sure, i have much more to add, but that is enough for now, simply to argue that all we are lacking is imagination when it comes to interacting with fellow workers…especially those who have made that step to protest and demonstrate for what they want – an alternative better world. Again you all know i pres for a full discussion – a conference – that can make definite proposals to put to a vote and put into action, rather than what we have been doing for a while now…talking..and talking ..and often repeating ouselves (at last i do ) and seemingly going around in circles with nothing ever bing decided.
Alan, you've mentioned a few times now party members reluctance to appear on this forum. Indeed I have seen one or two statements being put forward by members of this forum on behalf of party members who either can't or won't post themselves.Have you, or any party forum members, any idea as to why some refuse to contribute to an open party discussion forum?
There can be many reasons for not debating in public but there are a lot less for not debating on line. Beats me.
SocialistPunk wrote:Another non answer YMS. I hope this is not going to be a become a habit.Is it just me or do they not wish to take this serious?
I think it is for them themselves to explain. I would only be conjecturing. Various members probably have different reasons but i do think their reluctance to participate has an effect upon Party democracy. If we cannot interact and engage with them informally through the feedback mechanism of this discussion list then the only other recourse is officially through communicating directly with the committees and/or the EC, increasing the cumbersome nature of our bureaucracy (although i don't think that word is exactly the right one) I think it is time to close down the two old lists Spopen and WSM Forum and leave just Spintcom and this one active so that there no longer any other option. We cannot press-gang them into joining this discussion list but why offer an alternative which as i can judge is very lightly trafficked by its members when they do post.The internet committee might provide us some stats on thoe lurk on these lists. I do wonder why Canadian or New Zealand or Indian members (and many others) are not posting here. We just had the Canadian election and we heard not a whisper about it first-hand. We have the murder of beef-eaters and dalits in India, yet no comment from our members there about it. Just two detrimental examples. But if our own people do not care about exchanging views and opinions and even simply posting basic info that might be helpful for others, then why should John and Jane Doe bother to join it.
alanjjohnstone wrote:If we cannot interact and engage with them informally through the feedback mechanism of this discussion list then the only other recourse is officially through communicating directly with the committees and/or the EC, increasing the cumbersome nature of our bureaucracy (although i don't think that word is exactly the right one)It is becoming more and more less democratic for the party, when decisions are made at 'physical' meetings while opinions on 21st century communications appear to be ignored.'Moaners' are to be ignored at their peril. (labour corbyn etc). The same could be happening in the SPGB on a smaller scale obviously Johnstonmania has my full backing
SocialistPunk wrote:Alan, you've mentioned a few times now party members reluctance to appear on this forum. Indeed I have seen one or two statements being put forward by members of this forum on behalf of party members who either can't or won't post themselves.Have you, or any party forum members, any idea as to why some refuse to contribute to an open party discussion forum?I sometimes get the feeling that there is a fear of open public discussion of 'internal matters' – which is actually a tradition in the the party but now the internet makes it a reality. There seems to be a preference for making decisions based on discussion and information based and received at 52 Clapham High street. But things are about to change. I hope anyway
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