Path toward socialism
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What do members think of the possibility of people arriving at our conclusions independently of us – without necessarily knowing we exist?
It’s not just a possibility it happens all of the time. I remember back in the day there was a comrade from Iran who had come to similar conclusions as us and I believe had even got himself to Hyde Park Corner and was putting forward Socialist Ideas, completely oblivious to ourselves.
Yes it does happen. It’s what you’d expect according to the materialist conception of history.
Objectively, at this stage of human history, a world society based on common ownership (no ownership by any group) so that production can be brought under social control and oriented directly toward meeting people’s needs without buying and selling is the only framework within which the problems currently facing humanity can be rationally and lastingly tackled.
So you would expect some others to come to this conclusion independently of us, and they do. A recent example would be the Zeitgeist movement and its offshoots. But there have been others before them that emerged from the Situationists.
But what degree of agreement with our conclusions are you expecting? While there will be and has been 100% agreement on the aim/solution, to expect this degree of agreement with the whole of our approach would be going too far. We are the product of specific political conditions in one relatively small part of the world and have our own history and tradition. The likelihood of this being repeated independently of us anywhere else is completely unlikely.
So there will not be agreement with the “path toward socialism” we advocate nor on our other policies such “educate for socialism”. And has not been. Zeitgeist, for instance, does not accept that the way is through the class struggle and for a while favoured technocracy rather than democracy. Other groups that have emerged don’t agree with using the ballot box or with not supporting reforms as well or not getting involved as an organisation in day-to-day struggles.
Personally, I don’t see this as a problem in the long term as, after all, we have never claimed that the emergence of a world socialist consciousness will, could or should be purely the result of our own meagre efforts. Otherwise we’d simply be latter-day Utopian Socialists.
In some articles written by the SPGB they say that without Marx and Engels the Socialist Party would have developed its own conception of socialism, although Marx and Engels shortened the process with their research and writings. Many ideas of the Communist Manifesto existed within the working class before it was written by Marx and Engels, and even more Engels indicated that socialism-communism is a creation of the working class.
Nor need the movement and the new society be called socialism. It can be described in other ways.
It is the content which is important, not the terminology.
That is one lesson Zeitgeist did pass on which we should appreciate.
Content and context is also why even though they expressed themselves differently, we could distance ourselves from Parecon, despite the new “liberatory” language that served to express stale ideas.
Nor need the movement and the new society be called socialism. It can be described in other ways.
The word socialism has been completely distorted. A bank robber, a fireman, and a corporate CEO is a socialist according to the new modern definitions. Lowering the tax to the rich peoples is socialism and the opposite way is socialism too
It is the content which is important, not the terminology.
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The actual content of what socialism is, it is totally wrong, because it is just social services financed by the state, and the state is an institution financed with surplus value, the concept of common possession of the means of production is never indicated, and those groups promote the continuation of wage slavery, and the continuation of the profits system, and the eternal continuation of the state apparatus.
They have defined it in the same way as the Cuban government has defined socialism: Our national socialism, which is pure soviet state capitalism applied to the local conditions, or like the so called socialism of the XXI Century ( The socialism of the XIX century was not applied to the XX century .) which is state capitalism too, and bourgeois nationalism The same tiger with different stripes
Let me join John Oswald and ask a very similar question, possibly related:
What do members think of the possibility that people will arrive at our conclusions independently of us – without necessarily knowing we exist – on mass scale?
There is no question that in various parts of the globe the dispossessed will understand their position, and will try to form some kind of resistance, but what are the odds that within the current system of capitalist brainwashing/propaganda working class will arrive at socialist conclusions in sufficient numbers to actually bring about the socialist revolution?
schekn itrch – Of course nobody can answer such a question with absolute certainty. What we can use is what Marx called ‘the internal contradictions of capitalism’ as part of a dialectical inquiry into potential futures. Where ever capitalism exists so does the contrast of its promises (ideology) with its reality. In this way the ‘propaganda’ of the media contributes to the consciousness of this – it will always highlight the inconsistency, for instance, of the promises of politicians and their failure to carry them through when in office etc. This can lead to political cynicism and/or populism and contempt for the political establishment – but the dynamic of contradiction is always present and sometimes subverts what those in the media desire (conformity). It is our task to direct this frustration into positive action for socialism. What I’m saying is that the media brainwashing is not monolithic and one way – it very often leads to unintentional consequences. With this in mind there is every reason to believe that socialist consciousness will arise spontaneously within any capitalist context. Since we already exist as a world wide organization there is nothing to prevent such individuals and groups from joining us.
I don’t think there is any automaticity in acquiring socialist consciousness.
It is a combination of factors which may result in rejecting capitalism. We have the objective conditions but there are many subjective ones that require to be met. As I see it, such things as nationalism/xenophobia and religion are winning out in the battle of ideas.
The “socialism” that appears to be flourishing (Sanders is I suppose representative of the type) isn’t and where it may be implemented it will eventually and inevitably fail so there will be a backlash to the concept of socialism, setting back those of us with a clearer vision of what socialism means. How often have we had to answer for the state capitalist centralised command economy of Russia and now for the collapse of Chavism in Venezuela?
As for the Establishment suppressing socialists I am actually more confident that in the mature democracies of the developed world, the will of the people can prevail. It is why although politicians can circumvent and manipulate the democratic process, they ultimately cannot eliminate it. Fascism and Nazism were creatures of their epoch. But I am in no way saying that authoritarian totalitarian regimes won’t dominate in various parts of the world. But not in the crucial centres of the world economy. See how China hesitates and hold back in Hong Kong, unlike the reaction to Tiananmen Square (not that they will remain passive)
Nor am I saying that no matter how deep the media brainwashing and ideological conditioning we will remain fooled and duped. Actual real day-to-day experiences will resist attempts to distract and confuse. There is truth in the saying “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time”
I’m afraid I am a bit more sympathetic that the sparks for a revolutionary process will happen when we are faced with no other choice but to take action. Some Marxists I think like Paul Mattick believed the Tendency of Declining Rate of Profit and an ensuing permanent crisis will trigger the working class resistance. But more recently, we have the environment catastrophists suggesting that salvation will be outside class.
With climate change I think there will be a combination of economic and political impacts. The existence of borders and national sovereignty will be challenged by mass movements of peoples. Capitalist distribution of necessities for profit will be undermined perhaps by imposed rationing as in wartime.
Can I suggest you download Pieter Lawrence’s Last Conflict, a sci-fi scenario that visualizes the world faced with an apocalyptic disaster takes precautionary policies with makes the capitalist system’s social relationships redundant.
Do I expect to see socialism? No. Will the next generation see it? Who really knows? It is all speculation.
But what we can be very sure of, is that while capitalism continues, its inner conflicts and contradictions will carry on, too. Hence there will always be an opposition and a resistance to capitalism. Will anti-capitalists always have the right answers. Who can tell? Too many today still don’t.
I have made a decision on which side I stand, whether it is the winning side, I cannot say, but it is the correct side.
Well, you have to take into account my age and health, schekn.
I’ll consider it lucky if I see see a few more years of capitalism and the struggle against it much less see the advent of a socialist revolution
Besides age, and health, most peoples around the globe they love capitalism and their own rulers, and they are moving toward nationalism and right wing populists reformists, and at the present time, workers are more divided than in prior epochs, and probably, climate disaster might destroy the resources of the earth
‘…what are the odds that within the current system of capitalist brainwashing/propaganda working class will arrive at socialist conclusions in sufficient numbers to actually bring about the socialist revolution?’
The odds as a percentage? 99.99%. Or 0.001%. Every day it could be round the corner, or it could be hundreds or even thousands of years away. All we can do is to try and make it more likely.
One of my daughters recently told me that she agrees with it so that’s a step forward.
Some scientists think the existence of multiple parallel universes highly likely. So in at least one of them, socialism has already been achieved. Or maybe always existed. Which is no comfort at all.
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