Orban and the Anti-Immigration Right

[alanjjohnstone]

Orban further justifies Material World article

Material World: Europe – A Whiff of Fascism in the Air

Quote:

the west had “opened the way for the decline of Christian culture and … Islamic expansion” while his administration had “prevented the Islamic world from flooding us from the south…We are those who think that Europe’s last hope is Christianity … If hundreds of millions of young people are allowed to move north, there will be enormous pressure on Europe. If all this continues, in the big cities of Europe there will be a Muslim majority… immigration was no more helpful for a country’s national development than influenza contributed to a human body’s health…Orbán pledged his government’s solidarity with “those western European people and leaders who want to save their country and their Christian culture…We are waiting for the Italian elections, where Silvio Berlusconi can again occupy the government positions.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/18/orban-claims-hungary-is-last-bastion-against-islamisation-of-europe

[Ike Pettigrew]

Let's go through the Material World article, and I'll pick out some points, not everything, and not for the purposes of disagreement necessarily, but just selected highlights for observation and comment.  The article illuminates quite well this aspect of world socialism and makes a cogent argument. Extracts from the article are indicated by

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. 

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Many of us recognise a rightward swing in British and American politics in recent times and throughout Europe topics of immigration, Muslims and refugees are now dominating election campaigns like never before.

Is this really a swing "rightward"?  Am I right-wing in the proper sense?  I accept that the terms 'left' and 'right' have limitations, we don't need to go over that, but you clearly agree with me that the terms retain some significance, or you wouldn't use them in this way.  Your rhetoric here is sneakily trying to associate national feeling with the political Right.  I find that interesting, but let's shelve that thought for now.

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Despair and deprivation are fertile ground for the populist demagogue. Political and economic crises bring forth renewed discontent based on old slogans. Nationalist parties have been making significant gains and only too frequently elections in Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia have become contests between the right and the further-to-the-right. Some call it fascism but it is more accurately described as nativism where scapegoating foreigners offers an increasingly successful tactic for gaining political power. Populist regimes have opportunistically seized on refugees and migrants to promote xenophobia for political gain, tapping into fear and prejudice

Notice here how Nationalism and national feeling are pathologised and the working class in the West are talked-down and talked down to.  It can't be that there are real concerns about immigration, founded in experience of reality outside internet forums and middle-class talking shops and echo chambers.  It can't be that mass immigration and imposed diversity have damaging economic, cultural and social effects on their own, it must be that workers are credulous or stupid.  Yes, that must be it.Notice also the way that Nationalism is attacked morally as a way of 'getting at immigrants', as if the primary thrust of any anti-immigration critique is that workers in the host country take exception to immigrants themselves and not more concrete and relevant things like their general behaviour, their inability to assimilate, various oppressive criminal laws that forbid effective opposition to imposed diversity, and the lack of democratic consent for immigration in the first place.  No mention is made of the fact that immigrants are moral agents who choose to migrate and make their own decisions, nor is the question asked why immigrants can't succeed in their own countries or why certain parts of the world seem so unstable and what this might say about differences between different peoples.  Instead, a different scapegoat is selected: it's the fault of "populist regimes", and it's the ignorance of the working class, only one section of it: the ones who have immigration and diversity imposed on them, against their will. 

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In Hungary, Viktor Orban's Fidesz party and in Poland, Jarosław Kaczyński 's Law and Justice Party (PiS) have openly embraced far-right policies. Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orban referred to asylum seekers as 'poison' and advocates 'ethnic homogeneity.' To counter the country's declining population he announced a housing grant and loan scheme for couples who promise to have babies.

Isn't it just positively dreadful when the leader of a country decides to boost the native population at the expense of foreigners?  I can see Tarquin and Luncinda in some plate glass college at York University spluttering into their coffee now as they contemplate what life must be like for all those poor Hungarians living under this evil fascist dictator.  Evil I tell you!  It was bad enough when Trump was elected, but now this?  My word!  Tarquin might have to skip one of his lectures on gender dialectics in English Renaissance literature, he's so upset.But wait….what is this?  On the other thread, you were telling us about how countries with space should or could maybe let more people in.  I wonder why one type of population growth is 'good', but not the other, but again, let's shelve that heretical thought.

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Since his election in 2010, Orban has been accused of setting up an authoritarian state,

Translation: A capitalist leader has been accused of trying to defend Hungary as an ethnic community, against the wishes of liberal capitalists.

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jiggling with electoral laws, placing cronies in the judiciary and media, and squeezing funding for groups critical of his regime. Orban was re-elected in 2014 with more than double the combined vote of the next two candidates. Mainstream politicians are also critical of Orban, but they know that the alternative is even less attractive — the extreme right Jobbik party is Hungary’s second-largest.

This tells me that what Orban is doing is popular.  In other words, the preponderant view among native Hungarians is that they do not want mass immigration and they wish to preserve the ethnic character of their society.

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In 2015 Slovakia’s Interior Ministry spokesman Ivan Metik announced it will only accept Christian migrants when it takes in Syrian refugees under an EU relocation plan. Robert Fico, Slovakia's prime minister, reinforced that message the following year, saying that Slovakia will not accept 'one single Muslim' migrant into the country.' He further stated '…Islam has no place in Slovakia… I do not wish there were tens of thousands of Muslims.'

Why shouldn't those responsible for the welfare of the Slovakian people be concerned not to allow into the country those who do not share white European culture?  This is not racism, it is just the protection of the dominant culture to ensure continued cohesion.

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Political factions almost everywhere have turned immigration into a political football.

Translation: Inconveniently for some, most workers don't want mass immigration.

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Capitalism both unites and divides workers. The system compels our fellow workers to unite in order to defend their interests, but it also imposes upon us the necessity to compete individually for jobs. This rivalry creates animosity between workers of different nationalities, regions and religions, by endeavouring to bind the workers of one nation to the idea that they have a common interest with 'their' nation's employers. The only way to overcome these divisions is to strive for the solidarity of all workers, regardless of their nationality, language or faith. Native-born workers may think that excluding migrant workers will help them. But if the employers can hurt one section of the working class, it is easier to hurt the other.

This has to be the most pretentious and hypocritical paragraph of the whole article.  You call for solidarity among workers, yet you posit as the solution the forced integration of different peoples and cultures.  You do this in the hope that by mixing us all together, we will forget or overlook any important differences, adopt purely economistic mindsets, and finally develop the advanced consciousness needed for a democratic social revolution.  That is not the basis of solidarity.   Imposed diversity is the basis for resentment and conflict among workers.  If workers are to achieve solidarity – assuming that is desirable – this must be done through genuine internationalism, not through the abolition of cultural distinctions and forcing and bullying workers into living with other workers of alien cultures.  An Englishman is simply not the same as a Pakistani Moslem, does not have the same attitudes, culture or experiences.  At best, you will eradicate the essential distinctions that make humanity diverse while achieving your objective, but at the cost of a lesser and diminished humanity; worse, you will strengthen capitalism by removing the ethno-cultural bonds (I accept much of it vestigial) that exist between people and replacing workers with dumbed-down consumers.I'm also not clear how excluding workers from one country hurts any part of the working class.  If I am denied immigration to, say, the United States, that doesn't hurt me or harm my interests.  I will just continue to work where I am.  I'll still be fed and watered.  Why is it considered necessary for people to migrate this way, across not just one continent but sometimes several and through many countries, entering places in which they have no heritage or roots whatsoever?  Why is this necessary for socialism?  Why can't I have solidarity with, say, a Vietnamese person now, without him coming to Britain and without me settling in Vietnam?  It makes absolutely no sense.  Me and the man in Vietnam can agree we're both workers, and I can support him and he can support me; I don't need to live in his country and rob him of his culture, an agenda that favours capitalism, which seeks to unlock surplus value from countries with large populations but poor infrastructure and poor potential for development. Supporting this left-liberal agenda of mass migration and imposed diversity is like supporting, say, cooperatives because you think 'they lead to socialism', or it's like supporting abuses of workers like privatisation in the belief that socialism can only be achieved teologically, so 'the worse it gets the better'.  I think that's madness and I want no part of it.

[alanjjohnstone]

I certainly did not expect the article to meet with your approval, Ike. You have made your nativist views very explicit in your previous posts. 

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It can't be that mass immigration and imposed diversity have damaging economic, cultural and social effects on their own, it must be that workers are credulous or stupid.  Yes, that must be it.

Hungary certainly has not suffered any mass immigration and certainly has not suffered imposed diversity.https://www.ksh.hu/docs/eng/xstadat/xstadat_annual/i_wnvn001b.html (you work out the percentages)The EU agreement was for a very limited quota of asylum seekers to be admitted. Hungary was asked to take 1,294 asylum seekers. Scarcely registering any impact on economy or culture if acceptedA demagogue such as Orban created fear and hate by the misinformation and disinformation. Was it from genuine sentiment or political opportunism? I little care, for it is the negative consequences of such policies, shared by many more than Orban as i tried to indicate that was worrying. We have seen the rise of the Right (i have to agree with you, the terms right and left when it comes to populism is not ideal). As in Ukraine, Bulgaria, a nation that was the first in Europe to build the fences against refugees have been marching in commemoration of a Nazi nationalist.http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/far-right-nationalists-parade-in-bulgarias-capitalHungary (as the later Israel article of deportation of Africans also makes the points out, too) neglects its own tragic history and the welcome and warm reception its own refugees received in 1956 – (Joe Bugner the boxer being a famous one).How the exodus of Hungarians fleeing the Russians were distributed around various countries was the template for the EU asylum-seeker resettlement plan. Plus Orban's double-standards when it comes to Hungarian migrants to the UK where he fully endorses migrants mobility.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hungary-pm-viktor-orban-tells-david-cameron-hungarians-in-uk-aren-t-migrants-or-parasites-treat-us-a6801216.htmlI visited Hungary during its relaxation period of state-capitalism and the virulent racism that existed then was aimed at the Roma. As i have stated before, capitalism will always involve competition for jobs and services and it will use divide and rule to ensure control. I decline to acquiesce to those sections of fellow-workers who feel they have a privileged right by accident of birth to gain the advantage over others.  

[Ike Pettigrew]

Well Alan, at least you, me and Vin are keeping the punters entertained.  You and I should start up a double act.

[alanjjohnstone]

Quote:

"…The fear is that immigrants are stealing jobs and resources from citizens in the countries in which they live. However, statistics from the European Union tell us otherwise. The number of non-EU citizens living in Europe (some for a long time) is now 35 million, of whom about eight million are Africans, and seven million Arabs out of a total of 400 million. Those figures also include illegal immigrants.All statistics show that more than 97 percent of immigrants are totally integrated, that they pay on average more taxes than locals (of course, they worry about their future) and to date those who do not have a job are about 2.3 million people who are still awaiting a decision on their juridical status.There is not a single study claiming that immigrants have taken the jobs of Europeans in any significant way. It was the same story with the entry of woman into the labour market. An increasing proportion of women have joined the labour force over the last 30 years, but these increases have not coincided with falling employment rates for men. A study on Brexit demonstrated that immigrants had helped to increase GDP, and that the increase in productivity meant a global increase in employment. But we have reached a point where nobody listens any longer to facts, unless they are convenient.  It is clear that the real threat to employment for the large majority of citizens comes from robotisation, not immigration. No employed person has been fired to be replaced by an immigrant, unless we talk of non-qualified jobs that Europeans do not want in any case. Truck drivers, taxi drivers, bus drivers and school drivers, to take some examples, do not fear for their jobs because of immigration. Within a very few years, their jobs will become obsolete in any case, and there will be no plans or preparations for that. When the problem explodes, politics might start looking at it.Perhaps the more responsible thing to do – rather than stoking fear with populism and xenophobia – is that we start to come to terms with the real problem that our society is facing: automation.

Robots, Unemployment … and Immigrants

[Anonymous]

Ike Pettigrew wrote:

Well Alan, at least you, me and Vin are keeping the punters entertained.  You and I should start up a double act.

I do not find the subject remotely 'entertaining'. I am sure Alan and Vin do not do so either. It is all very well trying to understand why and where, obnoxious ideas arise from, in order to combat them, but I have some first hand experience of seeing some terrible consequences arising from them.

[Sympo]

Ike Pettigrew wrote:

If I am denied immigration to, say, the United States, that doesn't hurt me or harm my interests.

Unless you come from a country that's in a civil war or a country where there are no well-paid jobs or human rights lol

Ike Pettigrew wrote:

Supporting this left-liberal agenda of mass migration and imposed diversity is like supporting, say, cooperatives because you think 'they lead to socialism'

I don't think the article is saying "Hungary should be forced to take in refugees even if most people in Hungary don't want to". The article is saying "nationalism does not benefit the working class, and voting on people who demonize and keep immigrants out isn't going to make Capitalism work".Also, Orban and his party doesn't have the support of the majority of Hungarians. 61% of the population that were allowed to vote voted, and he got 44,87% of the votes. 2,264,780 people who voted for Fidesz out of 8,176,515 eligble voters is about 28% of the population.I am always irritated when people and newspapers don't talk about voter turnout.

[Anonymous]

Sympo wrote:

Ike Pettigrew wrote:

If I am denied immigration to, say, the United States, that doesn't hurt me or harm my interests.

Unless you come from a country that's in a civil war or a country where there are no well-paid jobs or human rights lol

Ike Pettigrew wrote:

Supporting this left-liberal agenda of mass migration and imposed diversity is like supporting, say, cooperatives because you think 'they lead to socialism'

I don't think the article is saying "Hungary should be forced to take in refugees even if most people in Hungary don't want to". The article is saying "nationalism does not benefit the working class, and voting on people who demonize and keep immigrants out isn't going to make Capitalism work".Also, Orban and his party doesn't have the support of the majority of Hungarians. 61% of the population that were allowed to vote voted, and he got 44,87% of the votes. 2,264,780 people who voted for Fidesz out of 8,176,515 eligble voters is about 28% of the population.I am always irritated when people and newspapers don't talk about voter turnout.

Donadl Trump  said in his campaign to obtain support from the white nationalists  that Mexico send the worst, that would be like saying that the government of Mexico put them in a truck or train and   send the Mexicans to the USA, it is the opposite way, the Mexican, South American, Central American are forced to emigrate due to the disastrous conditions that the US capitalists along with national ruling of those nations have createdd for them , nobody wants to emigrtate,  and most of the ciivl wars in Central America the opposite side was financed by the USA too, even more, they created phony guerrillas fighters, and they also created phony communist parties to inflitrate themselves inside others organizations. Peoples like to talk shit without knowing anything about history, or without knowing the reality. A person with a job and certain social benefits living in those countries would never emigrate to the USA.

[Anonymous]

Matt wrote:

Ike Pettigrew wrote:

Well Alan, at least you, me and Vin are keeping the punters entertained.  You and I should start up a double act.

I do not find the subject remotely 'entertaining'. I am sure Alan and Vin do not do so either. It is all very well trying to understand why and where, obnoxious ideas arise from, in order to combat them, but I have some first hand experience of seeing some terrible consequences arising from them.

Do you have any first-hand experience of rape?I've heard that lots of young white women are being raped by the immigrant pets that idiots like you, Vin and Alan want to keep bringing into the West.When do we get t discuss that, fuckwit?

[Anonymous]

Matt wrote:

Ike Pettigrew wrote:

Well Alan, at least you, me and Vin are keeping the punters entertained.  You and I should start up a double act.

I do not find the subject remotely 'entertaining'. I am sure Alan and Vin do not do so either. It is all very well trying to understand why and where, obnoxious ideas arise from, in order to combat them, but I have some first hand experience of seeing some terrible consequences arising from them.

Do you have any first-hand experience of rape?I've heard that lots of young white women are being raped by the immigrant pets that idiots like you, Vin and Alan want to keep bringing into the West.When do we get to discuss that, fuckwit?And why do you, Vin, Alan Johnstone, Adam Buick and the SPGB hate white women and want white women to be raped?

[moderator1]

Wergittep Eki wrote:

Matt wrote:

Ike Pettigrew wrote:

Well Alan, at least you, me and Vin are keeping the punters entertained.  You and I should start up a double act.

I do not find the subject remotely 'entertaining'. I am sure Alan and Vin do not do so either. It is all very well trying to understand why and where, obnoxious ideas arise from, in order to combat them, but I have some first hand experience of seeing some terrible consequences arising from them.

Do you have any first-hand experience of rape?I've heard that lots of young white women are being raped by the immigrant pets that idiots like you, Vin and Alan want to keep bringing into the West.When do we get to discuss that, fuckwit?And why do you, Vin, Alan Johnstone, Adam Buick and the SPGB hate white women and want white women to be raped?

This user is placed on an indefinite suspension for using a sock puppet account: 1. The general topic of each forum is given by the posted forum description. Do not start a thread in a forum unless it matches the given topic, and do not derail existing threads with off-topic posts 7. You are free to express your views candidly and forcefully provided you remain civil. Do not use the forums to send abuse, threats, personal insults or attacks, or purposely inflammatory remarks (trolling). Do not respond to such messages..8. Do not register or operate more than one account without first obtaining permission from the moderators. Do not share your password with others or allow anyone else to use your account. Do not use your account to post messages on behalf of any suspended user, without prior permission from the moderators.

[Anonymous]

Wergittep Eki wrote:

Matt wrote:

Ike Pettigrew wrote:

Well Alan, at least you, me and Vin are keeping the punters entertained.  You and I should start up a double act.

I do not find the subject remotely 'entertaining'. I am sure Alan and Vin do not do so either. It is all very well trying to understand why and where, obnoxious ideas arise from, in order to combat them, but I have some first hand experience of seeing some terrible consequences arising from them.

Do you have any first-hand experience of rape?I've heard that lots of young white women are being raped by the immigrant pets that idiots like you, Vin and Alan want to keep bringing into the West.When do we get to discuss that, fuckwit?And why do you, Vin, Alan Johnstone, Adam Buick and the SPGB hate white women and want white women to be raped?

Probably, he has not read the history of so many black and Indian women that were raped by white men. Most plantation owners there were always raping the black women, and most of them were their slaves. There are so many mixed peoples in the Caribbean because thousands of women were raped by the white men

[alanjjohnstone]

And what about child abuse? Most take place within the family by other family members or family friends. Want to ban the family?Most women are raped by men that they know. Want to ban friendship/ acquaintanceships between genders?Your point is meaningless 

[Anonymous]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

And what about child abuse? Most take place within the family by other family members or family friends. Want to ban the family?Most women are raped by men that they know. Want to ban friendship/ acquaintanceships between genders?Your point is meaningless 

Including their husbands

[robbo203]

Wergittep Eki wrote:

Matt wrote:

Ike Pettigrew wrote:

Well Alan, at least you, me and Vin are keeping the punters entertained.  You and I should start up a double act.

I do not find the subject remotely 'entertaining'. I am sure Alan and Vin do not do so either. It is all very well trying to understand why and where, obnoxious ideas arise from, in order to combat them, but I have some first hand experience of seeing some terrible consequences arising from them.

Do you have any first-hand experience of rape?I've heard that lots of young white women are being raped by the immigrant pets that idiots like you, Vin and Alan want to keep bringing into the West.When do we get to discuss that, fuckwit?And why do you, Vin, Alan Johnstone, Adam Buick and the SPGB hate white women and want white women to be raped?

 This has surely got to qualify as one of the dumbest statements to be made on this forum.   The SPGB  "hates white women and wants white women to be raped".   Oh please.. What planet  do these people come from?

[Author]

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