Nuit Debout
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Yes the movement's link with Lordon was in the newspaper articles and he is quoted as declining to speak to the media. “I have no wish to appear as something I am not – the leader of a movement which has no leader,” and i linked to the economist site that are also promoting the movement. The other prominent figure associated with the movement is François Ruffin, the founder of the left-wing journal Fakir and the director of the documentary film Merci patron!Did, or has, your contact visited the protest and talked with the some of the participants involved with it and come to any conclusions about the potential that it may have, ALB?
Spotted this last week, was waiting for Francophones to tell more:Nuit debout : genèse d'un mouvement pas si spontané
Quote:Le collectif Nuit debout qui organise depuis sept nuits des réunions place de la République à Paris et dans d'autres villes de province, se veut autogéré, sans leaders définis ni appareil organisationnel. Dans leurs AG qui durent tard dans la nuit, on trouve pêle-mêle des militants d'EELV et du Front de gauche, des syndicalistes, des militants associatifs, des étudiants. Sans porte-paroles officiels, ce collectif disparate et mystérieux s'appuie pourtant sur une communication bien rodée: diffusion des AG sur Periscope avec un franc succès, lives sur les réseaux sociaux, un compte Twitter avec plus de 21.000 abonnés. Leur premier tweet date du 22 mars, et appelle à manifester le 31 sous le hashtag #Convergencedesluttes.Machine Translation wrote:The collective that organizes Night standing for seven nights of meetings Place de la République in Paris and other provincial cities , wants self-directed , not defined or organizational unit leaders. In their AG that last late into the night , there is a jumble of activists of EELV and the Left Front , trade unionists, community activists , students . No official spokespersons , this disparate and yet mysterious collective is based on a well-honed communication: dissemination of Periscope AG with great success , lives on social networks , a Twitter account with more than 21,000 subscribers. Their first tweet March 22 , and called for a demonstration on 31 under the hashtag #ConvergencedesluttesShades of Bakunin, if they are resisting organisations they would shut us down before our mouths opened (as Occupy would have had we tried any formal approach).
alanjjohnstone wrote:Did, or has, your contact visited the protest and talked with the some of the participants involved with it and come to any conclusions about the potential that it may have, ALB?Yes he has and here is what we has to report (SEL schemes are LETS schemes):
Quote:I did have a look round but it was the day of the big demonstration. I didn’t see anything very interesting except the usual stuff on minority rights, SEL schemes, and all kinds of bright suggestions for saving the planet. Not very interesting. I imagine that the situation is different in the smaller towns of France where things can get quite lively.Confirms the passage that YMS's machine translated.
Now that your contact is aware of our interest, he will no doubt keep a watchful eye on developments, ALB.You might suggest that he pays a visit to Nuit Debuit under its normal conditions and interact more with the participants, I recall Occupy St Paul's was a scene where David Icke and Money Positive tried to make their presence felt.Of course, ex-member RCox would be inspired a bit by the growth of groups advocating some of the ideals close to his heart.
DJP wrote:alanjjohnstone wrote:Quote:It's up to them to develop their ideas.By implication then, the working class doesn't need a socialist party to educate, agitate and organise.
Well socialist ideas certainly do not originate with the SPGB, there's nothing that the SPGB says that others have not thought of independently. I think it's not a case of "making socialists" but of finding socialists, or arranging things so that socialists can find us.
If that is your view, you are within your right to work for socialism in whatever way you choose, what I find odd is that you seem to find it hard to recognise that others want to carry out different kind of activities and appear to be intent on blocking or criticising them for doing so. If you want to sit in your ivory tower, like some Victorian maiden spraying the kind of perfume on that you think will attract the working class to you, off you go, but please have the courtesy to respect others who want to do it differently.
A Libcommers overly optimistic view on Nuit Debouthttp://libcom.org/news/rise-every-night-everywhere-every-workplace-12042016
Quote:What is happening in France is a delight to witness….To create a new world, essential for both human dignity and survival, we need to rise up every night, at every place, and at every factory.When one of the instigators refuses to be interviewed about it, disclaiming a role of leader or even spokes-person what can journalists do but either investigate further…and spend valuable time doing so…which i am sure their editors aren't going to approve of or make a superficial analysis based on their experience of conventional politics and lefty sects. We have made comparisons with Occupy but there are some to be made about how centring upon personalities a la Russell Brand, it is much easier to de-legitimise and pull down a movement. For sure their demands will be mostly made up of the radical left reformism but they have discovered the downside of any formal organisation as had Occupy. I imagine France have even more Leftists rushing in to steer the protest to its advantage, But as DJP pointed out there is a disadvantage of no leaders when it is also accompanied by no formal structures to debate and direct the movement towards tangible…or at least towards goals that are definable As i said during Occupy we have over a hundred years of organisational skills to recommend as an example and we shouldn't be reluctant to share them. I said we could tailor-make leaflets for this protest and i am sure you are very capable of advancing a critique of the leadership principle in politics and suggesting various egalitarian models for decision making that doesn't exclude those unable to always be present physically at meetings and are the nucleus of an actual structured political movement that avoids the pitfalls of vanguardism which also makes all the participants responsible and accountable
The UK media are startinjg to pay attention:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/08/nuit-debout-protesters-occupy-french-cities-in-a-revolutionary-call-for-changeAnd a slightly more snarky artivle from The Independent:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/police-remove-nuit-debout-protesters-but-the-revolution-is-set-to-continue-a6978596.htmlIt does make the good point that this ptrotest exists under official sufference.The most significant thing is that, unlike Occupy, it has clearly spread.I wonder if the no policy tactic is an echo of the John Holloway 'scream' stuff we were hearing about a few years ago. It certainly drives the journos mad.
Another article in the Guardianon Nuit Debouthttp://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/12/ive-never-felt-so-involved-in-democracy-nuit-debout-protesters-france-belgium-on-their-causeComments by different participants‘We want a society built on something else than just profit and money-making’‘I finally felt like my voice could be heard and something really significant could be done not just for one group of oppressed people but for all of them at the same time. It’s called la convergence des luttes (the meeting point of struggles).’‘Now anything could happen… the challenge is to maintain and build on the momentum by working with other social movements’‘The movement is extremely young, and at the moment many people are discovering themselves as active participants in a large group for the very first time. As the movement continues, talents will be discovered and I think that the frustrations most people generally feel will be much better channeled into a more concrete and stable political and social movement.’‘The event had many different “commissions” about varied topics like housing, education, universal benefit, pay and feminism. These consisted of people getting on their soapbox and saying stuff that everyone already believed: effectively preaching to the choir. ..The style of the commissions didn’t let people respond to what was said because everyone had to get in line to speak by putting up their hand and then waiting until it was their turn. After the commissions were finished there was then an assemble générale in which each commission told everyone what was decided. In fact, this turned out to be just a place to talk about the organisation of the Nuit debout and complain about stuff. Throughout the whole assembly hardly any policies or thoughts linked to the ideas of the movement were expressed, so it was a bit disappointing.’‘Nuit debout seemed primarily in response to the new labour laws, which to me are unacceptable. But the debates and discussions are going much further. It is now about everything that goes wrong with societies, in France but also of course everywhere. It is about profit domination and its consequences, and about irresponsible exploitation of Earth’s natural and human resources… It’s a beginning, but it really seems to be a determined one.’As it suggested in earlier posts, this is all about activists on a learning curve who realise they don't have all the answers by have plenty of questions. So i think it is important to try face-to-face conversations and gauge the importance or not of this movement and one way to meet people is to have a lit stall under our banner and distribute leaflets that address the issues that are at the forefront of their minds.
Another articlehttp://www.truth-out.org/news/item/35656-the-spirit-of-occupy-lives-on-in-france-s-emerging-direct-democracy-movement
I think it may be instructive by comparing Nuit Debout and Democracy Springhttp://www.democracyspring.org/One being more organic spontaneously started protest, the other despite its intentions, an initiative by radicals in the media and on social media, drawing upon and using a number of high profile personalities.One is not interested in media attention and getting on with making a protest permanent, the other actively seeking media interest and accept that they are a passing phase (but perhaps as inspiration for something else)
This seems to be more a by-product of the French government's attempt to water down labour laws and therefore probably just a French national phenomenon not likely to spread to other countries, whereas Occupy was a reaction to the Great Crash of 2008 and so more global as a reaction against an effect of world capitalism.
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