Nuit Debout
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Verging on the 'disruptive' there Tim. I think DJP has banned Vin for life for less than 'cheeryarse'
DJP wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:A comrade comes up with an ideaIdeas are very easy to come up with, especially if they are for other people to do. The problem is getting them put into action. If anyone wants to go to France then great! But who? And what effect could we realistically expect it to have?Normally it's Alan that is Private Fraser, so glad to be the fill in.
well to be honest Comrade, if this movement (theirs not ours) is still ongoing in the summer (when I finally get some time off from work) and there are other Comrades whose French is better than my schoolboy attempts at the language, I would probably be able to get across."If anyone wants to go to France then great" Obviously knowing we woould have your approval would be the icing on the cake.As to what effect we could realistically expect to have, well I guess it is more likely to produce results than sitting on the internet discussing how many angels can dance on a pin head with L Bird.
DJP wrote:Ideas are very easy to come up with, especially if they are for other people to do.All the easier from the relative isolation of your pina colada sipping jungle retreat some 5k miles away…
"The problem is getting them put into action. If anyone wants to go to France then great! But who?"I think i have already raised that question, especially amid an election campaign.i also think on another thread i have answered it. Let's bribe …entice …coax …members who are reluctant to get involved by ensuring it is only their time that they are sacrificing and not their hard-earned money and offering some sort of reward for their time and energy. "And what effect could we realistically expect it to have?"That all depends on what we find there, doesn't? I have only got two newspaper reports to go by but both offer some details that sound promising for ourselves to explore. It may well mean …and i hope it does…follow-up trips with even more literature and perhaps the next time with tailor-made propaganda to distribute.Perhaps we will find that the supposed vacuum has already been filled by those "radical" econimist reformists mentioned earlier on the thread and our purpose changes to one of re-buttal and refutation. We are a WSM and again i refer to my pleas early in Nov and Dec that we cross the channel during the COP21 talks. London to Paris takes about 2 hours by train. It isn't demanding the impossible. Perhaps others know of comrades already in France to help out. "Ideas are very easy to come up with, especially if they are for other people to do."Yes, Gnome has in the past reminded of this habit of mine to try and gee up activity in the UK from the other side of the world.And as i reply…am i to be excluded from making any suggestions and putting forward ideas because of my location.If so, then why should isolated members be made to feel like second-class members, their contributions dismissed because they themselves are unable to carry them out in person. Perhaps that is also applicable to party members who are elderly or infirm, that whatever input they offer should be discarded since they cannot physically partiipate. We are not a two-tier party. As an equal member i am free to make whatever proposal i wish and as our party is based on voluntarism it is up to other members to choose whether to be active or not. We don't press-gang members into doing party work. But how long the party can function as a political party is dependent upon members participation within it…even if it is only turning up once a month for a branch meeting…
Quote:All the easier from the relative isolation of your pina colada sipping jungle retreat some 5k miles awayHave you got an issue with my contributions that i make each and every day to the party, Gnome? Isn't it enough for you?Why is it you wish to exclude me from any role in the decision making in our activities?Perhaps i should simply close down the lap-top and concentrate more upon my apparent hedonistic life-style, instead…very easily done As i said on my other message … i won't be discourged from fully expressing my views about what the party should be doing just because i am not able to make it to an event in person.And will accept the snide remarks made in an uncomradely tone for what they are worth…vacuous comment
alanjjohnstone wrote:Quote:All the easier from the relative isolation of your pina colada sipping jungle retreat some 5k miles awayHave you got an issue with my contributions that i make each and every day to the party, Gnome? Isn't it enough for you?Why is it you wish to exclude me from any role in the decision making in our activities?Perhaps i should simply close down the lap-top and concentrate more upon my apparent hedonistic life-style, instead…very easily done As i said on my other message … i won't be discourged from fully expressing my views about what the party should be doing just because i am not able to make it to an event in person.And will accept the snide remarks made in an uncomradely tone for what they are worth…vacuous comment
If only you could make the effort to understand how your prescriptive tone is received by other already hard-working comrades but I guess you simply don't possess the necessary sensibilities. I'm sure you mean well but ultimately that kind of approach is counter-productive.
Quote:"If only you could make the effort to understand how your prescriptive tone is received by other already hard-working comrades but I guess you simply don't possess the necessary sensibilities."Is this the pot calling the kettle black? Or don't you recognise your very own hectoring style. Perhaps if YOU joined the EC there would be less need for you to continually lecture it on its actions…What is good for the goose is good for the gander, Gnome…See, I can apply your own logic against yourself. What galls me is that when i was resident in the UK, i wasn't some armchair activist dishing out advice that i didn't follow myself.I recall not long after i re-joined being at one anti-war demonstration in Glasgow, on my own, where i turned up not with leaflets but with the only things at hand – unsold back copies of the Sociailist Standard to give out and met a lefty politico, someone who attended all manner of events and him telling me that he thought the SPGB was now defunct (at least in Scotland) He had not seen hide or hair of any SPGBer for quite a few years he explained. I think my "prescriptive tone" helped a little bit in increasing activity in Glasgow and Edinburgh branches to address that perception of ourselves. And while i was in Scotland, i also undertook unwelcomed tasks for the party that went beyond branch level. And i have also now volunteered to undertake them once again to lighten the load for members who wish to concentrate on more pressing priorities. Sure i advocate more visible activity, sure i come up with proposals for doing exactly that, sure i use the example of some branches who are doing better than others and invite others to follow their example. Sometimes my ideas can be seen as unviable, i accept that, but i most definitely won't accept i have no right to put them forward. I have a membership card that entitles me to that privilege.You take it upon yourself to exercise criticism of and to censure members of the EC and many of the committees, and i take it upon myself to urge more participation from the party as a whole. WTF is the difference?Is my suggestion to engage with nuit debout a good one or not?If it is positive then we should do our damnedness to accomplish it and try to overcome snags and problems. If it is not such a good idea, tell me why and we can discuss it. If it is an outright bad idea then come up with alternatives for us to do. Or do we put all our eggs into one basket and concentrate entirely on election campaigns that come around every few years and so very much less demanding on the committment of members to assist in them?
Quote:I think it's not a case of "making socialists" but of finding socialists, or arranging things so that socialists can find us.DJP, I don't think we have the equivalent of the so-called "gaydar" so finding socialists is a difficulty, and added to this is our own demanding definition of a "socialist"Not too many out there who would immediately pass our applicant's test. Most new members (and i don't mean those who were "born" into the party) have required introduction to our analysis and many of their own preconceptions about socialism challenged and disproved. Membership of the SPGB is not signing on the dotted line and being issued with a membership card. It is i think part of the process of acquiring socialist consciousness. Which brings me to the last part of you comment "arranging things so that socialists can find us" Just how do we that?One of the problems of the internet and of social media is its sheer size. I think we share the same problem as those in search of other life in the universe…our minute minuscule tiniest of specks in space means other life will be very lucky to come in contact with us, as we will with them.Perhaps some socialists accidently stumble upon our presence, and aren't scared off by the "welcome" we sometimes offer if their ideas are not 100% in line with ours. I keep saying, we acquire different baggage on our political journey and don't jettison all parts of that baggage at the same time. My guess is that if there are other socialists out there, then they will be politically active in political movements and campaigns that reflect the general albeit not the exact position of ourselves. They won't come to us because they don't know about us. Or their opinion of us has been perverted and corrupted by unfair criticism that has been aimed at us rom our rivals and they have never seen our answers to that. Maybe they ran into Social Studies member and judge us by that strange encounter. Who knows?So we should go to them or more accurately attend events where we are likely to come across them. Perhaps from the observations made by the press nuit debout might be fertile ground for us to sow our ideas and see if people share part of our views and then we can begin a dialogue and discussion. Maybe the future might mean we invite them to London and perhaps assist them logistically if they wish to try a similar venture in London. Then maybe we might see local socialists turning up who we can introduce ourselves to. But back to your original statement that we don't 'make' socialists. I beg to differ from experience. Many members in the past encountered the party from passing by an open-air meeting, stopping and listening or picking up a socialist standard and reading it. They were not "converted" and had a no road to Damascus revelation…they simply saw a few things that they agreed with…and a lot they didn't but the atmosphere and the opportunity led to further discussion and the education efforts of members convinced them of our case. And they joined. In that way, a socialist was "made"
alanjjohnstone wrote:Quote:"If only you could make the effort to understand how your prescriptive tone is received by other already hard-working comrades but I guess you simply don't possess the necessary sensibilities."Is this the pot calling the kettle black? Or don't you recognise your very own hectoring style. Perhaps if YOU joined the EC there would be less need for you to continually lecture it on its actions…What is good for the goose is good for the gander, Gnome…See, I can apply your own logic against yourself. What galls me is that when i was resident in the UK, i wasn't some armchair activist dishing out advice that i didn't follow myself.
Shows how out of touch you really are now, Alan; perhaps you hadn't realised the contribution I try to make in one of the more active branches of the party. As for the EC there are personal reasons why I cannot give that degree of commitment which again you would know nothing about. Suffice to say it's not down to some self-imposed exile…
Actually, we've got 2 members and at least one sympathiser in France. I've emailed the sympathiser, who lives in Paris, to ask what he knows about this group and for his opinion of it. This might save a useless trip to Paris and taking the risk of being blown up there by some fanatical suicide bomber.
And it was your branch i actually had in mind when i said
Quote:sure i use the example of some branches who are doing better than others and invite others to follow their example.Or do you wish to ignore the times i have praised the branch's regular street stalls and the public meetings and projected discussion group and when i have suggested that other branches should emulate its example and the frequent occasions i used the SOYMB blog to publicise its events That is out of touch i am…But sometimes i am in the dark about things…i recall questioning the value of a trellis that is now subject to current EC business…and receiving a vague response that it had another purpose…no one deemed it necessary by private pm to enlighten me of that purpose…Nor has that been the only time EC decisions were confusing to me because i was out of the loop. I am sure if i was in one of the provincial branches, it would be much the same. "self imposed exile" or how i describe myself – "economic refugee" – neither is a reason why any input from myself should be questioned just because of where it originates from. particularly because i am not able to conduct Party business efficiently through a branch meeting that i am more active than most online. Perhaps that is a problem to some. That i contribute too much for some other members to bear. Members of Edinburgh branch will vouch that i was not the most silent member in attendance and had plenty to say about many things concerning the party. And that, yes, i would make proposals that some felt personally unable to undertake, often for good reason due to health or age. A look at this forum seems to suggest I am perhaps the most active on it, both with providing simple information as well as supplying opinion, especially when that is requested by posters. Or would some prefer it to return to the moribund state of the other forums. Or that i take the stance of some other office holders in the Party who do not participate on any discussion list to be held accountable…Surely the description of "self-imposed exile" would more accurately refer to them. But enough of this trading of "holier than thou" comments. If you have anything more to add to the thread make it relevant to the proposal in regards to nuit debout or to my comments to DJP on the purpose of the party in making or finding socialists. Our mutual personal situations and the impact it has upon participation with party business is of very much secondary importance to other members reading this topic
Actually, DJP, I take some of remarks back and it is a result of the efforts of yourself and others, I exaggerated and used hyperbole for effect in regards the internet and finding us.When i entered into google "socialism" we were third but of course that well may because of my use of google and its supposed capacity to tailor searches to the user.I think you be able to ascertain more accurately where we appear in the order rank of searches.
My message #19 "Perhaps others know of comrades already in France to help out."I'm not too surprised that with your network of political contacts , ALB, we could rely upon to get someone to investigate. And we don't even need to pay his Metro fare to do it!
Our man in Paris replies:
Quote:Less interesting than Occupy. Started by a guy called Frédéric Lordon who is a very interesting Marxist (though a bit difficult to follow)More on Frédéric Lordon here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_LordonHe's also the author of a book translated into English as Willing Slaves of Capital:https://www.bookdepository.com/Willing-Slaves-Capital-Frederic-Lordon/9781781681602Reviewed here, for instance:http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2133-frederic-lordon-s-willing-slaves-of-capital-a-review
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