Nationalism – a failure of Marxist theory?
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Yawn
Quote:In fact, humans 'react to the same circumstances and material conditions' in totally different ways, because those 'humans' live in different societies and thus have different 'social beings'.And if humans were not at root basically the same, then those people brought up in a given society would react differently to their experienced social being, rather than reacting in relatively predictable ways. There wouldn't be stable social sets such as nations and classes.
Vin wrote:YawnYeah, I feel the same way, Vin.Why you and YMS don't just say that you won't have ideas interfering in matter, and have done with it, and leave the field of ideas to the nationalists, I don't know.At least then you'd know why the nationalists, and their 'ideas', continue to trump your materialism, and its 'matter', hands down, in the world of humans and their political and scientific ideas.Yes, yes, I know, I'm an 'Idealist'.Yawwwwwn…
Reminder: 1. The general topic of each forum is given by the posted forum description. Do not start a thread in a forum unless it matches the given topic, and do not derail existing threads with off-topic posts.
moderator1 wrote:Reminder: 1. The general topic of each forum is given by the posted forum description. Do not start a thread in a forum unless it matches the given topic, and do not derail existing threads with off-topic posts.Right.I'll leave the thread to the 'materialists' and their mystification of Marx's theoretical ideas, which apparently have failed to challenge nationalism.
One day we are going to blame on Engels the vanguard party concept too. Marx supported several bourgeois and nationalist revolutions during his time, and Rosa Luxemburg had a much better stand than him in regard to the national questionWorkers are the ones who must remove nationalism from their brains, and stop following a bunch of stupid leaders, I have heard peoples saying: I love my land, and they do not even own a tiny lot in the cemetery, they are not confused, they have been brain washed Nationalism is an ideology that has been implanted in our brains since we are able to talk and to listen, the best propagator of that ideology are our parents, and family members, there are places on earth where peoples have never heard about Engels or Marx and they are nationalists
Hi Mcolome1There's already been a discussion about workers consciously choosing capitalism and rejecting socialism, though there's no harm in doing it again.I think the term brain washed is a little excessive. Brainwashing is a particular type of psychological manipulation technique that requires certain physical conditions to be met in order to produce results. The techniques used on recruits in the armed forces is a classic example.The process of socialisation is more accurate. You are spot on when you say we are born into it. A world where leaders and countries are commonly accepted concepts, so for most of us this is the way it is. No thought is needed to identify with those concepts because we are surrounded by them as we grow up. This is why so often our concept of socialism is seen as alien.
Can the continuing persistence of religions be also used to describe a failure of Marxist theory? The strengths of ideas ebbs and flows with the tide of history, waxes and wanes like the Moon. But we can say that over the course of capitalism…300 years…belief in religion has lessened, despite a seeming resurgence in some parts of the world…And from something like hundreds of countries in Europe we have been reduced to a few score so nationalism (or at least parochialism) has also proved weaker…i think this was a part of Marxist theory, so being literal, nationalism or the overall decrease in it confirms the global nature and the centralisation of capitalism as predicted for the course of capitalism by Marxist thinkers.My two bits of input to the thread
SocialistPunk wrote:Hi Mcolome1There's already been a discussion about workers consciously choosing capitalism and rejecting socialism, though there's no harm in doing it again.I think the term brain washed is a little excessive. Brainwashing is a particular type of psychological manipulation technique that requires certain physical conditions to be met in order to produce results. The techniques used on recruits in the armed forces is a classic example.The process of socialisation is more accurate. You are spot on when you say we are born into it. A world where leaders and countries are commonly accepted concepts, so for most of us this is the way it is. No thought is needed to identify with those concepts because we are surrounded by them as we grow up. This is why so often our concept of socialism is seen as alien.The same propaganda used in order to recruit peoples for the armed forced , is the same propaganda used to recruit peoples to become nationalists. Many psychologists are employed to make effective propaganda thru televisions and radio, in the same way that psychologists are used to make commercials, for me, it is all brainwashing
Mcolome1Brainwashing does not concern the tools used for the recruitment of young individuals into the armed forces, though I have read that many of the techniques used to attract the vulnerable are similar to those of cult groups. The process of brainwashing starts once they are in.For starters it requires the isolation of a person from their family and friends.The recipient must be totally reliant on the brainwasher, to the degree that everything is controlled by the brainwasher, when to eat, sleep, use the bathroom, what to wear etc.The aim is to break the recruits identity, using control, humiliation and ritualizastion, to the point where a new identity can be imprinted on the recipient in the form of a belief system, attitude, behaviour.I remember as a young lad, I was very much interested in joining the army. I knew I couldn't, due to health reasons, but I jumped at the opportunity to go to a day camp organised by my school. A taster session. What an eye opener. Humiliation and verbal abuse started early, much to the surprise of our attending teachers.There was one lad, I'll never forget to this day. He flat out refused to take part any further in an assault course. He was ritually humiliated like it was going out of fashion. The military instructors tried everything short of violence to make him join in, screaming in his face, calling him a coward prefixed by every vile word they could think of, all to humiliate him into obedience. I could see our teachers squirming.He stood his ground.If he'd been a recruit, there is no doubt in my mind he would have been on the receiving end of some form of low level violence. It was then I really saw what was going on. They were trying to crack us, make us conform to the group mentality, to their mentality. That is brainwashing.
I was never drawn to cults but i did have a friend who became involved with one of the Christian cults…and heard about her first introduction to it…a rough and ready country cottage , well away from others, a basic meal in the evening, community singing long into the night, and then an early rise (sleep deprivation) to do the household chores and again a very basic breakfast leaving her hungry and tired all day and non-stop interrogations (confessionals) with the long-standing members of the church group….i told her i considered that type daily routine to be a physically making her vulnerable to brainwashing and in fact tantamount to psychological torture techniques…Fortunately it was merely a passing fad and she re-joined family and friends. Regards to the Army, you are right about de-humanising them…and the first act is to shave off their hair and place them in identical uniforms so they no longer have individual identities.
Does anyone know of a electronic (or cheap!) copy of Omar Dahbour's book Illusion of the People's: a critique of national self determination. It's only available at stupid price on Amazon and there isn't a library that has it nearby.
Darren redstar wrote:Does anyone know of a electronic (or cheap!) copy of Omar Dahbour's book Illusion of the People's: a critique of national self determination. It's only available at stupid price on Amazon and there isn't a library that has it nearby.Abe Books is a good place to find used books at a cheap price
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