More waffle from Peter Joseph…

[SocialistPunk]

Unfortunately I had a problem with the TZM TeamSpeak 3 download. Not sure what happened but I ended up with the German version or something like that. I emailed Brian and he agreed something must have gone wrong and I didn't have an opportunity to put it right before the meeting.I believe this Monday is the next one, gonna try again.

[Brian]

ALB wrote:

This talk of TS3, etc reminds me. What happened at the UK chapter meeting a week or so ago that Brian and Socialist Punk were going to take part in?

I attended but it seems Socialist Punk is contemplating the complexity a new meduim of communication and how it impacts on his well being, health and life style.  You had better purchase a headset because at the next meeting this Monday I shall propose you as the guest speaker for the first meeting in the new year.  Hehe.

[SocialistPunk]

Just need to clarify a point here. At the moment my Cystic Fibrosis does not prevent me from putting on some headphones and talking on the net. It may when I am ill.There is an issue that could interfere for a short while,  the introductory course of a new hobby I have started runs for a few more weeks on Monday evenings. But seeing as the timings are different I should be ok, once I have sorted out the download issue.Not so much a case of contemplating a new medium of communication, more a case of trying to get timings in sync.

[ALB]

Brian wrote:

It's already starting to contradict itself by attempting to distance TZM from "class war" when not so long ago Peter Joseph acknowledged in a tv interview on Russia Today that TZM like the Civil Rights Movement it models itself on is a participant in the class war.

I'm not so sure about this. Already in the passage already quoted they recognise that the vast majority are oppressed (subject to "indirect violence") by "social stratification":

Quote:

TZM's advocated train of thought, on the other hand, sources advancements in human studies. It finds, for example, that social stratification, which is inherent to the capitalist/market model, to actually be a form of indirect violence against the vast majority as a result of the evolutionary psychology we humans naturally posses.(their emphasis)

Earlier on, on the first page of the introduction in fact, they had said:

Quote:

For instance, the current social model, while perpetuating enormous levels of corrosive economic inefficiency in general, as will be described in further essays, also intrinsically supports one economic group or "class" over another, perpetuating technically unnecessary imbalance and relative deprivation. This could be called "economic bigotry" in its effect and it is not no less insidious than discrimination rooted in gender, ethnicity, religion or creed. (their emphasis again).

It could also be called "exploitation". OK, this is apparently only placing class discrimination on a par with other forms of discrimination but it's a start.

[Anonymous]

calling it waffle probably isnt the best way to win them overthis is the best wayhttp://zeitgeistworker.wordpress.com/

[ALB]

zeitgeistworker wrote:

calling it waffle probably isnt the best way to win them over

Agreed. Hope you read through at least the opening pages of this thread where this point was made.Have you seen the videos of two debates we have had with them:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDMLqH2tjzwhttp://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/video/discussion-zeitgeist-movementand also read this article on "Zeitgeist and Marxism".Incidentally, since there are comparatively few who call themselves "socialist" who see socialism as necessarily a moneyless as well as a classless and stateless society, what is your view on this?

[Brian]

zeitgeistworker wrote:

calling it waffle probably isnt the best way to win them over

I've been trying to win them over for 3 years by sharing links to socialist articles an providing a socialist response to many of the subjects brought up on TS 3.   Although I've had some success many in zeitgeist find a political challenge a bit of a turn off or unnecessary.That aside I'm sure you are aware that TZM are in turmoil at the moment with this revelation from the Australian Chapter:  https://www.piratepad.ca/p/Global_Core_Team which is absolute proof that a pyramid structure did exist, or does exist within TZM with Peter Joseph at the helm.The Australian, Columbian and NYC Chapters have all left the movement due to the undemocratic action taken by this Global Core Team.  And the UK Chapter is split over the issue so don't be suprised if the movement shrinks to a rump centred around PJ and his sycophants.

[Anonymous]

ALB wrote:

Have you seen the videos of two debates we have had with them:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDMLqH2tjzwhttp://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/video/discussion-zeitgeist-movement

This first of these links is actually a private interview with Pistono which was filmed in the library of The Socialist Party prior to the debate on March 10th, 2013.The links below are to the video of that debate uploaded to youtube and the audio version to our own website:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcFocV-f3ewhttp://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/audio/will-there-be-economic-collapse

[Hud955]

There seems to be an ongoing disagreement about what is and isn't Zeitgiest.  Before this meeting I asked a Zeitgeist representative whether Federico was speaking on behalf of the movement or for himself and was told he was speaking for the Zeitgeist movement.  When I introduced him in these terms, Federico corrected me and said that he was speaking for himself.  In a previous debate we had with a Zeitgeist speaker we were given a similarly personal account (focused on the banking system).  And again, when I attended a talk in London by a guy billed as the TZM Education Co-ordinator (or something similar, I forget exactly) he spent a great deal of time talking about the Venus Project as though the two organisations were still linked.  So, would the real Zeitgeist movement please stand up!

[Brian]

Hud955 wrote:

There seems to be an ongoing disagreement about what is and isn't Zeitgiest.  Before this meeting I asked a Zeitgeist representative whether Federico was speaking on behalf of the movement or for himself and was told he was speaking for the Zeitgeist movement.  When I introduced him in these terms, Federico corrected me and said that he was speaking for himself.  In a previous debate we had with a Zeitgeist speaker we were given a similarly personal account (focused on the banking system).  And again, when I attended a talk in London by a guy billed as the TZM Education Co-ordinator (or something similar, I forget exactly) he spent a great deal of time talking about the Venus Project as though the two organisations were still linked.  So, would the real Zeitgeist movement please stand up!

The debate with Federico was on his book and although the contents of the book have a connection to the TZM 'train of thought' the debate was arranged directly with Federico and not through the TZM London Chapter.   I agree that pinning down what exactly this 'train of thought' consists of is difficult and on times confusing due to the various interpretations and level of understanding individual 'members' may have of the Activist Orientation Guide (which is yet incomplete).But much the same thing could be said about the Marxian train of thought in that the debate and discussion will always be on going and subject to the present conditions and circumstances.  In effect what is occurring with the advent of TZM is that you have numerous people from around the globe who have come together to express their dissatisfaction with the current mode of production under the banner of a social movement to complain, criticize and condemn the inequalities perpetuated by the private ownership of the means of living.  Nevertheless, they do not see themselves as representing a political challenge to the status quo.  And this is where much of the confusion arises in their particular 'train of thought' in reference to using the political process to bring about the change they seek. 

[Author]

Posts