More on Brexit
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Revealing tweet yesterday on the EU Brexit summit:
Too bad that the European Union is being so tough on the United Kingdom and Brexit. The E.U. is likewise a brutal trading partner with the United States, which will change. Sometimes in life you have to let people breathe before it all comes back to bite you!
Maybe this should have been posted on the Trade War thread but maybe it also provides a clue as to where the dark money to finance the media campaign for No Deal might be coming from, e.g. capitalist interests who want to weaken the EU by detaching the UK from it and drawing it into the US orbit instead.
Not quite sure, though, what the cryptic comment in Trump’s last sense means.
Here is Corbyn recycling VincentM’s favourite quote from him:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-47916058
I like the quip from the other guy about May being the first prime minister in history to fall on their sword and then miss it. I wonder how long it took him to think that one up.
I’ve just been told of something on facebook where Nigel Farage has been welcoming a couple who have flown back from their home in Spain to join his new Anti-Brexit Party.
Here is Corbyn recycling VincentM’s favourite quote from him:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-47916058VincentM has a point in suggesting we should at acknowledge that Corbyn’s statement , thus, is at least an advance on the bleating’s of the Tories (setting aside his questionable view on the subject of taxation – workers dont actually shoulder the burden of taxes , despite appearances; its the capitalists that do that) :
“We believe the real divide is between the many – who do the work, create the wealth and pay their taxes – and the few – who set the rules, reap the rewards and dodge their taxes.”
But, OK, so Corbyn acknowledges the class divide in society – so what? What is he and the capitalist Labour Party gonna do about that???? We all know the answer to that and, to put it bluntly, it would be a complete dereliction of our socialist duty not to point that the election of a Corbyn government can spell only one thing – shoring up the wealth of a tiny class of parasitic capitalists acquired through the exploitation of the workers.
I really do not know what else Vin expects socialists to say about Corbyn. Ok, Corbyn seems a fairly affable guy, the sort you can share a pint with in a pub, and he does seem more principled than most others in his profession. But let there be no misunderstanding on this score. He unequivocally represents the interests of the few – those “who set the rules, reap the rewards and dodge their taxes.” as he put it. If he thinks otherwise he is liar or a fool no different from the other politicians
We do ourselves and our fellow workers no favours by suppressing this hard fact, however unpalatable it might seem to some. Any attempt to appear to encourage or nurture pro-Corbyn sentiments will end in deep disillusionment, betrayal and a huge backlash. Yet again the cause of socialism will be set back a notch or two as workers intent upon repeating the mistakes of the past swarm over to supporting the Tories with the bitter taste of a Corbyn-led government still in their mouths
Robbo wrote
“it would be a complete dereliction of our socialist duty not to point that the election of a Corbyn government can spell only one thing – shoring up the wealth of a tiny class of parasitic capitalists acquired through the exploitation of the workers.”
By the way you forgot he is ant semetic and his ex-wives hate him.
How can you disagree with his statement above?It is in your D of P and it was certainly a belief of Karl Marx which is more than you can say about the absurd statement ‘the immediate abolition of money and the state’
The SPGB is small because it is hostile to workers and their attempts to feed and house themselves.
ALB said
Here is Corbyn recycling VincentM’s favourite quote from him:
And it is only one quote from him among hundreds you would shoot down despite being in the D of P
Like it or not he is almost certain to become PM according to latest polls.
Robbo wrote
“it would be a complete dereliction of our socialist duty not to point that the election of a Corbyn government can spell only one thing – shoring up the wealth of a tiny class of parasitic capitalists acquired through the exploitation of the workers.”
By the way you forgot he is ant semetic and his ex-wives hate him.
How can you disagree with his statement above?It is in your D of P and it was certainly a belief of Karl Marx which is more than you can say about the absurd statement ‘the immediate abolition of money and the state’
The SPGB is small because it is hostile to workers and their attempts to feed and house themselves.Vin, that’s nonsense
Where have I suggested the man is anti-Semitic ? Where have I made any personal attacks on him?
You have completely missed the point. Of course the statement made by Corbyn about the class -divided nature of contemporary society is one the SPGB can fully agree with (setting aside his dubious comment about taxation). Just because he is a politician does not mean he cannot come out with a truthful statement
My point, as you very well know, is not about the veracity of his statement but about the ability of him and his party to deliver any meaningful change to a society that operates in the interest of capital and against the interests of wage labour. Corbyn, affable though he may be, determined though he may be to want to “stand with the workers”, will have no option but to side with capitalists in the class struggle against the workers. That’s a simple fact, Vin , whether you like it or not
It saddens me that you seem to have drifted away from socialism into Labourite reformism and making common cause with Corbyn fan club. Since when did socialists put their trust in, or hero worship, leaders?
As for saying “The SPGB is small because it is hostile to workers and their attempts to feed and house themselves” – come on now, even you must recognise this for the bollocks that it is.
You have allowed the “red mist” that has descended upon you ever since you left the Party to distort your perception . I hope one day that mist will lift and you might once again become a comrade in the cause for socialism
“By the way you forgot he is anti-semitic and his ex-wives hate him.”
I recognized this as VM’s humour, Robbo which you should have done.
I don’t think Robbo did launch a personal attack towards you but expressed an interpretation of your post, VM, and where he believes it is leading to.
But let’s focus the exchange.
The issue is that regardless of sincerity, good-intentions and a genuine overlap of socialistic ideals, radical reformers such a Corbyn and Sanders will have their wings clipped as soon as they get close to acquiring real political power.
Back in 2016 I read an article that if Sanders became president, he would achieve very little because of an informal alliance between the Republicans and the majority of Democrats would spring up
In 2020, we see that the liberal/left Democrats presidential nominees mostly agree on universal free healthcare yet the centrists have already put forward the watered-down version of yet another private insurance integrated healthcare system to ensure division. On the foreign relations they may distance themselves from Netanyahu but none actually renounce the US-Israel alliance.
As for AOC, I have quoted her as expressing a very SPGB-type comment on another thread but when it comes to actually policy, such as the Green New Deal, the practicalities of implementation is again side-stepped. This is echoed around the world where despite the public commitments, government action is diluted.
I accept that the SPGB is small because we do not express our sympathy or solidarity sufficiently when fellow-workers engage in the class struggle which unavoidably involve making certain demands upon the State.
This isn’t the Party subscribing to reformism but accepting that our fellow-workers will inevitably challenge those in political power to change policy, be it environment or trade union rights. Our task is to understand that but to go one step further, and advocate the capture of political power to change IT, itself and make it the tool for societal system change.
It is not what we say but how we say it, that has been the Party’s problem. We urge class struggle and suggest it is for the participants and not the Party to assume its direction. We then blame workers for not heeding the road-map we lay down for them when they take their various twists and turns on the journey. If they head off up a dead-end or take a dangerous detour, we should explain why the diversion is a mistake, but we shouldn’t retard their will to take on that journey. To continue the metaphor, our role is to put into place the road-signs and if our fellow workers fail to go the way we indicate, it is simply to continue to put up the signs showing the right directions to our destination.
We are the compass of the working class. Not its shepherd.
So it is all a matter of attitude and approach. We don’t try to command.
“I recognized this as VM’s humour, Robbo which you should have done.
I don’t think Robbo did launch a personal attack towards you but expressed an interpretation of your post, VM, and where he believes it is leading to.”
Me leaving the party has nothing to do with the subject under discussion. He turned it personal because he had no reply or if he did have a reply he preferred keeping to himself. I liked Robin but now I see him as the usual sectarian playing to the crown (allbeit a tiny one)
Robbo said
“It saddens me that you seem to have drifted away from socialism into Labourite reformism and making common cause with Corbyn fan club. Since when did socialists put their trust in, or hero worship, leaders?
As for saying “The SPGB is small because it is hostile to workers and their attempts to feed and house themselves” – come on now, even you must recognise this for the bollocks that it is.
You have allowed the “red mist” that has descended upon you ever since you left the Party to distort your perception . I hope one day that mist will lift and you might once again become a comrade in the cause for socialism”
This has nothing to do with the subject under discussion. If you do not recognise that as ‘turning it personal’ then the sectarian mist is blinding you also.
I will leave this discussion to avoid more hateful attacks and assume there is no reply to my substantive comment
“and assume there is no reply to my substantive comment”
VM, are you now dismissing my contribution to the discussion as not a serious attempt at a response?
Perhaps, I should take the same offence at that disrespect. 🙁
Some members would accuse me of Party heresy in explaining myself in such a manner so my post should not be taken so lightly and treated as insignificant.
Robbo’s comments were an opportunity for you to respond with reasoned arguments against his observations, even though you consider these to be ad hominem attacks.
Debate is what this forum is all about and it will lead to disagreements and some might express themselves injudiciously.
Sigh. Vin again you completely missing the point. I am not attacking you, I am attacking the views that you now seem to hold as Iam quite entitled to do – views such as the one you expressed that “The SPGB is small because it is hostile to workers and their attempts to feed and house themselves”. Perhaps you might care to substantiate this nonsensical claim? Even a single reference or link to anything the Party has ever said would do the trick
Then there is your views about Corbyn. I find it disturbing that every time he has criticised by socialists you seem to want to jump to his defence. Why? You seem to want to lump socialist criticism of Corbyn with criticism that comes from other quarters. You ask how can we in the SPGB possibly disagree with Corbyn’s contention that we live in a class divided society but who said we did? That’s not why oppose Corbyn and his party as you well know. Nor do we oppose Corbyn because the Tories call him an anti-Semite or whatever. SPGB criticism of Corbyn is totally different from capitalist criticism of Corbyn. Stop lumping the two together. You almost make it sound like we are in league with the Tories to bring down Corbyn and that annoys me no end, to be honest.
To clarify matters it would helpful if you spelt out in clear terms what exactly your views now are on Corbyn and the Labour Party instead of engaging in shadow boxing. Do you now support this organisation or do you take SPGB’s view of opposing it on socialist grounds?
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