Moderators decision on Cde. Maratty’s indefinite forum ban
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Quote:this forum is part of our propaganda
And, forbid, that we ourselves might just have something to learn and that the forum isn't also a part of our own constant self-education…When we set up a discussion group under various names…socialist marxist or whatever, any non-member of the party cannot be a functionary or have any role in its operation…after all…it is our property to propagate our case…not to really discuss…more a group to proselytise …
We can only use party property and resources to work towards the objects of the party. If people just want a place to chat, they can do it somewhere else on the Internet.
Quote:those who aren't with us are against us…Reallllllyyy?No such thing as a socialist outside the party? That not only do we have the forum as our party property, but we even own the idea of socialism, too Or do you think there are genuine socialists who disagree with the party position and can legitimately engage us in the battle of ideas as comrades…?
Quote:If people just want a place to chat, they can do it somewhere else on the Internet.So we can dispense with this section of the forum and you'll be the first to propose its deletion from the forum
Quote:Off topic Non-serious discussion, joke sharing and anything else.LBird wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:Anyway, how do you know these "facts" about zombies, I thought facts had to be established by the workers through a democratic process, when did the workers have a vote about zombies?How else would 'facts' be established?I know that you won't answer this epistemological question, because that is at the heart of our disagreements. I'm a Democratic Communist who seeks to give a democratic political, philosophical and scientific basis to the social production of knowledge by class conscious workers. And you don't.
TK wrote:As to the cod psychology, I have never psychoanalysed a fish, however I have had a few thoughts about the psychological profile of a certain feathered animalYeah, it's always the 'method' of the 'elite' who can't account to workers why workers can't politically control their production: to question the 'psychology' of dissidents who question the so-called 'scientific' basis of 'elite knowledge production' and 'expert control'.I'll leave you to your all too 'few thoughts'.
I think you miss understand my motives, I'm not part of an "elite" questioning the psychology of a dissident (you) who is questioning the so called scientific basis of elite knowledge production and expert control. In fact to do so would elevate you to a position of importance in my mind that you do not hold.What my too few thoughts (hint of elitism there Birdy) are directed towards is just plain and simple piss taking. I'm sorry if I confused you, I just assumed that having the piss taken out of you was something that you were probably quite familiar with.As I now have a vision of you shut up in a basement waiting for the zombies to attack, hopefully our little discussion has been helpful. As Max Brooks says in The Zombie Survival Guide, "In a long and seemingly interminable siege, boredom can lead to paranoia, delusion and hopelessness. It is important to keep your mind in good shape."
Tim Kilgallon wrote:I think you miss understand my motives…What my too few thoughts … are directed towards is just plain and simple piss taking.I knew that, TK, you don't appear to have the wit or education to engage seriously with questions about democracy in science.But at least your words display to all, the inability of an SPGB member to answer political questions, and also your personal motives for constantly sidetracking and trolling any attempt to push for sensible answers from the wider SPGB.Why the mods don't treat you much the same as Vin, and give you warnings about your 'piss taking', I don't know.
LBird wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:I think you miss understand my motives…What my too few thoughts … are directed towards is just plain and simple piss taking.I knew that, TK, you don't appear to have the wit or education to engage seriously with questions about democracy in science.But at least your words display to all, the inability of an SPGB member to answer political questions, and also your personal motives for constantly sidetracking and trolling any attempt to push for sensible answers from the wider SPGB.Why the mods don't treat you much the same as Vin, and give you warnings about your 'piss taking', I don't know.
Questions about democratic science? I should engage seriously with the idea that we should campaign to have a vote of workers re whether zombies exist?The reason I don't engage you in argument, and I guess other forum users feel the same way, is that you do not appear to be able to engage in logical argument, you commit the following logical falacies, to name but a few, with rapidity:The Strawman FalacyThe False Cause FalacyThe Black or White Falacy (if you do not agree with L Bird that science should be democratically controlled you must be an autocratic elitist)Proof by Asserttion ( If L Bird says it often enough it must be the case)Afferming the Consequent (e.g. Lenin was a materialist, therefore if you are a Materialist you must be a Leninist)False DichotomyI would also add to that regular use of sophism.Your usual response to any poster who attempts to point this out to you is to question the educational status, intellectual ability and motives of your opponent. (as you have done here) I find it strange that a person who claims to be so vehemently anti-elitist, should so regularly resort to asserting their intellectual superiority.
Tim Kilgallon wrote:LBird wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:I think you miss understand my motives…What my too few thoughts … are directed towards is just plain and simple piss taking.I knew that, TK, you don't appear to have the wit or education to engage seriously with questions about democracy in science.But at least your words display to all, the inability of an SPGB member to answer political questions, and also your personal motives for constantly sidetracking and trolling any attempt to push for sensible answers from the wider SPGB.Why the mods don't treat you much the same as Vin, and give you warnings about your 'piss taking', I don't know.
Questions about democratic science? I should engage seriously with the idea that we should campaign to have a vote of workers re whether zombies exist?The reason I don't engage you in argument, and I guess other forum users feel the same way, is that you do not appear to be able to engage in logical argument, you commit the following logical falacies, to name but a few, with rapidity:The Strawman FalacyThe False Cause FalacyThe Black or White Falacy (if you do not agree with L Bird that science should be democratically controlled you must be an autocratic elitist)Proof by Asserttion ( If L Bird says it often enough it must be the case)Afferming the Consequent (e.g. Lenin was a materialist, therefore if you are a Materialist you must be a Leninist)False DichotomyI would also add to that regular use of sophism.Your usual response to any poster who attempts to point this out to you is to question the educational status, intellectual ability and motives of your opponent. (as you have done here) I find it strange that a person who claims to be so vehemently anti-elitist, should so regularly resort to asserting their intellectual superiority.
And yet you don't engage.Empty vessels, Tim…
I have my moderator's cap on right now, so i won't be engaging in any more debate on this thread as i will be monitoring posts, ready to intervene if necessary
Young Master Smeet wrote:alanjjohnstone wrote:To offer an instance of the difficulty – LBird and Robbo as non-members of the Party but are regular posters but neither have recourse to a full appeals procedure eg to the EC, conference and party poll that a party member such as Cde. Maratty can pursue, if he so wishes, and has been urged to do. Such inequality among forum users requires to be resolved and will be in the due course of time.I sincerely hope not. Non members should certainly not have the same rights and privileges as members: the forum belongs to the members of the party.
If we were to follow the logic of your suggestion towit: the forum belongs to the members of the party; we would end up talking to ourselves. In theory yes the forum does belong to the members of the party but in practice we make no claim on the ownership of socialist discussion and how it's arranged.Which logically means both socialists and workers have to reach an agreement on what these arrangements consist of in terms of engagement through a set of guidelines/rules otherwise such an engagement is a non-starter. With this in mind moderation on the forum is open to suggestions, complaints and appeals by all parties. For if we fail to provide free access to such issues by default we are leaving ourselves open to the claim that equality only applies to party members.
Reminder: 7. You are free to express your views candidly and forcefully provided you remain civil. Do not use the forums to send abuse, threats, personal insults or attacks, or purposely inflammatory remarks (trolling). Do not respond to such messages.
Brian wrote:Which logically means both socialists and workers have to reach an agreement on what these arrangements consist of in terms of engagement through a set of guidelines/rules otherwise such an engagement is a non-starter. With this in mind moderation on the forum is open to suggestions, complaints and appeals by all parties. For if we fail to provide free access to such issues by default we are leaving ourselves open to the claim that equality only applies to party members.The rules of this forum belong to the democratic structures of the party, not any ying or yang who turns up: if conference votes every post here must begin "Forsooth m'lud" then so be it, and guests comply or leave.If the EC instructed the mods to remove the Off/Topic jokes section, out it would go. The moderators can have their say, but I can go to my branch and to cofnerence over decisions I don't like: non-members can't.
YMS, you have identified one of the dilemmas that i highlighted in message #95 about appeals to moderation
Quote:To offer an instance of the difficulty – LBird and Robbo as non-members of the Party but are regular posters but neither have recourse to a full appeals procedure eg to the EC, conference and party poll that a party member such as Cde. Maratty can pursue, if he so wishes, and has been urged to do. Such inequality among forum users requires to be resolved and will be in the due course of time.Rather than take the position that the status of non-members should not be considered, we are trying to find a way on the appeal process to make them equal for both they and members. We at our open meetings admit the fact that non-members have a right to speak and also the right to address the chair over any grievance that might occur, such as being shouted down by the audience or seek adjudication of a point of order or whatsoever in a formal debate. We extend our party attitude of democracy to the wider domain of recognised etiquette and justice for non-members. We leave the selective picking of questions from only known supporters and not to known critics to the Trot's manipulated meetings.i personally acknowledge that regular posters to the forum who are not members of the party do have a claim of, if not of legal residence…(not a great analogy, i confess)…but "squatters rights"…
So……Vin is banned from the forum for going of topic. Care to point out the on-topic posts? What an absolute farce
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