Moderation Suggestions

[robbo203]

I think the point is Mod1 we have a fundamental difference of opinion about what the purpose of a thread is or should be. .. I see the title of a thread as indicating only the starting point of a conversation that can lead to all sorts of unexpected twists and turnings and new terrains of thinking.  To me, the concept of "derailing a thread" is meaningless – or should be –  because  it implies the direction of the debate should mechanically go along fixed tramlines regardless whereas,  in real life, conversations don't  develop like that.  We are grasshoppers by nature! One thought can lead to another and then another until eventually we are talking about something that is wholly unrelated to the original thought.  That is what I am saying the forum should be more like You however see the title of a thread more as a kind of straitjacket that serves to restrict the discussion in the thread along certain lines through the duration or the life of the thread  –  though admittedly you want to loosen this straitjacket  a little. I don't think this is helpful to you guys as hardworking Mods or beneficial to the  forum in general.  I would seriously urge you to rethink your approach and think of the title of the thread as a merely a kind of opening gambit to star a conversation  My guess is that a lot of conversations would continue to focus on the original focus of the opening post but not all thread would or should.  There is certain logic in the way a thread progresses, moving away from the contents of the original post.  Its not just random.  And I think if you start imposing cut off points where posts come to be considered to be "off topic" you lose a lot of the richness of the argument that comes with just letting things flow naturally and take their course

[DJP]

I think the purpose of the "off-topic" rule is not to make the forum into an equivalent of the word association game "just a minute", but to enable a means of preventing individuals and groups from turning every post into one about their pet topic, gripe or obsession. It's one thing for conversation to naturally progress, it's another to continually force the same topic upon people.

[moderator1]

robbo203 wrote:

I think the point is Mod1 we have a fundamental difference of opinion about what the purpose of a thread is or should be. .. I see the title of a thread as indicating only the starting point of a conversation that can lead to all sorts of unexpected twists and turnings and new terrains of thinking.  To me, the concept of "derailing a thread" is meaningless – or should be –  because it it implies the direction of the debate should mechanically go along fixed tramlines regradless whereas  in real life conversations don't  develop like that.  We are grasshoppers by nature! One thought can lead to another and then another until eventually we are talking about something that is wholly unrelated to the original thought.  That is what I am sating the forum should be more like You however see the title of a thread more as a kind of straitjacket that serves to restrict the discussion in the thread along certain lines through the duration of the life of the thread  –  though admittedly you want to loosen this straitjacket  a little. I don't think this is helpful to you guys as hardworking Mods or beneficial to the  forum in general.  I would seriously urge you to rethink your approach and think of the title of the thread as a merely a kind of opening gambit.  There is certain logic in the way a thread progresses, moving away from the contents of the original post.  Its not just random.  And I think if you start imposing cut off points where posts come to be considered to be "off topic" you lose a lot of the richness of the argument that comes with just letting things flow naturally and take their course

You may not have noticed but we do allow Off-topic discussion within a thread.  Quite a lot in fact. Indeed, our guidelines advise this non-action.  The title of the thread does not serve as a straitjacket but a guide on the conversation.  There's more than sufficient scope on the forum for any of your "grasshopper" conversations to take place.The logic of your argument is we would end up with only one title and only one section.  Unlike grasshoppers we choose to categorise our subject matter.What we can not allow is deliberate Off-topic posts which intend to derail the subject of the title.  You seem to be of the opinion this will alleviate us "hardworking Mods", I only wish that would be so.

[moderator1]

DJP wrote:

I think the purpose of the "off-topic" rule is not to make the forum into an equivalent of the word association game "just a minute", but to enable a means of preventing individuals and groups from turning every post into one about their pet topic, gripe or obsession. It's one thing for conversation to naturally progress, it's another to continually force the same topic upon people.

Good point but a tricky one to moderate, has we are finding with the LBird conversations on idealism-materialism.  Especially when users other than LBird introduce a topic which is clearly inducing him to make a comment, albeit from another angle.  So who is actually forcing who?On the other hand when LBird pushes in on a topic, which is clearly a deliberate attempt to derail the topic, he's allowed only one bite at the cherry and all further responses by him are moved to the Off-topic section.If mods where to enforce the rules on the LBird conversation the solution is to simply delete all such posts or titles and possibly be accused of being censors.  On the other hand by applying the rules, despite the repitious conversation it does allow users like robbo to introduce new material which can be slightly Off-topic but nevertheless stay within the topic of the main title, i.e. idealism-materialism but from a different angle.

[robbo203]

DJP wrote:

I think the purpose of the "off-topic" rule is not to make the forum into an equivalent of the word association game "just a minute", but to enable a means of preventing individuals and groups from turning every post into one about their pet topic, gripe or obsession. It's one thing for conversation to naturally progress, it's another to continually force the same topic upon people.

 Hmm I'm not sure how true this is DJP….. For starters, the off topic rule doesn't prevent  the obsessional person from obsessing "on topic" or initiating theads about their "pet topic, gripe or obsession"  Secondly to indulge your own obsession in "off topic" mode,  you need some kind of linking argument that connects the original post with what what you eventually want to  talk about or obsess over in order for you to come across as more persuasive.  Otherwise people are just gonna ignore you. Now this is no bad thing as this stretches peoples imagination and forces them to think outside of their own little box And thirdly there is the point that people tend to vote with their feet.  An obsessional poster who bangs on about the same old thing repeatedly will become boring and  not elicit much in the way of response..  Others will just start new threads to get from a discussion that appears to be stuck in a rut.  I think the approach that I am advocating – to drop the off-topic rule altogether  – will actually encourage contributors to diversify and be creative if they want to capture the attention of others

[Anonymous]

I think it's a good conversation you're having here.  Seems like good observations all round.  You're struggling with some fundamental problems of organizing information and what values to promote in your communication protocols. Does you're social norms and communication protocols (rules, laws) work the way socialist beleive they should?  Do they work well or poorly?  these are good questions of value that you're bringing up and debating.  It occured to me that you could resolve the problem like socialist should.  In my opinion, a good socialist wouild do a user survey and ask them how much value they get from a representative sample of off-topic vs topic posts and ask them what they think the solution should be and then vote on a solution.  that would seem the non-leader, non-governmental, socialist friendly way to address the matter.  Or for a shorter solution, you can ask each other what percent of the SPGB community would agree with a statement then actually poll the community to decide statistically, if you're just a loud voice with no support.  I could spend some time making a survey that's easier to use and reaches a conclusion faster with less people minutes spent arguing and being surveyed. But I think surveys have been prohibited so that's a policy and and forum law that's imposed on the members without their consent. 

[moderator1]

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

 I could spend some time making a survey that's easier to use and reaches a conclusion faster with less people minutes spent arguing and being surveyed. But I think surveys have been prohibited so that's a policy and and forum law that's imposed on the members without their consent. 

You are wrong in thinking surveys have been prohibited and that's the party policy or that its a "forum law that's imposed on the members without their consent".  This clear assertion is based on a pure assumption, followed by a false conclusion.The truth is the party have had several surveys over the years, but the fact of the matter is we run a yearly survey under the heading of, 'Conference voting paper' where the full membership of the party have an opportunity to agree or disagree on the various issues and problems of class struggle.What this means in practice is the party membership can as a whole conduct and organise its own surveys.  On the other hand, socialists welcome members of the working class conducting their own survey on socialist issues of the day.  But having said that, you will find that socialists are not keen on the presumption that we are willing participants in any such projects, when they obviously reflect little understanding on the socialist case.

[Anonymous]

moderator1 wrote:

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

 I could spend some time making a survey that's easier to use and reaches a conclusion faster with less people minutes spent arguing and being surveyed. But I think surveys have been prohibited so that's a policy and and forum law that's imposed on the members without their consent. 

You are wrong in thinking surveys have been prohibited and that's the party policy or that its a "forum law that's imposed on the members without their consent".  This clear assertion is based on a pure assumption, followed by a false conclusion.The truth is the party have had several surveys over the years, but the fact of the matter is we run a yearly survey under the heading of, 'Conference voting paper' where the full membership of the party have an opportunity to agree or disagree on the various issues and problems of class struggle.What this means in practice is the party membership can as a whole conduct and organise its own surveys.  On the other hand, socialists welcome members of the working class conducting their own survey on socialist issues of the day.  But having said that, you will find that socialists are not keen on the presumption that we are willing participants in any such projects, when they obviously reflect little understanding on the socialist case.

excelent and informative answer.  i Thank you with 1 hour of my time if you want it and tell me how to spend it. I have asked to post surveys in my discussion comments and been stonewalled by moderators who simply ignore my request.  So not really a pure assumption on my part and I'm still not sure of the conclusion.  It sounds to me like only a priveledged class of people can post surveys here on your board.  How do I become part of the priviledged class?  It seems like your saying I can post a link to surveys but you expect everyone will ignore it.  Am I understanding you correctly? I imagine without the information determined by market purchasing data that surveys would be a frequent occurance in this board.  There's even systems of thinking that are survey based in their intire structure and use formal cartesian logic only peripherally. the human mind has been compared to a vast statistical analysis system by Artificial intellegence researchers and neuroscientist. It seems to me that communism is premised on the idea that decision maker know what others want in determining products or exchanges.  If that were true, then they wouild know about the statistical preferences for various groups.  Estimating the percent agreement for a survey is a test of fitness for decision making or leading or taking action that affects others, IMO.  Socialist may not have leaders, but they certainly have a need for people who can understand what others want and value. They don't believe in god, so it can't be god that tells them who wants what and who does what well and who likes to do what kind of labor.  You could ask them and They could tell you, but that would be a survey type question.   I think given the level of discord that surveys can be a valuable way of reconciling different opinions and worldviews. . . well, I'm rambling, so thanks for your reply. 

[moderator1]

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

moderator1 wrote:

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

 I could spend some time making a survey that's easier to use and reaches a conclusion faster with less people minutes spent arguing and being surveyed. But I think surveys have been prohibited so that's a policy and and forum law that's imposed on the members without their consent. 

You are wrong in thinking surveys have been prohibited and that's the party policy or that its a "forum law that's imposed on the members without their consent".  This clear assertion is based on a pure assumption, followed by a false conclusion.The truth is the party have had several surveys over the years, but the fact of the matter is we run a yearly survey under the heading of, 'Conference voting paper' where the full membership of the party have an opportunity to agree or disagree on the various issues and problems of class struggle.What this means in practice is the party membership can as a whole conduct and organise its own surveys.  On the other hand, socialists welcome members of the working class conducting their own survey on socialist issues of the day.  But having said that, you will find that socialists are not keen on the presumption that we are willing participants in any such projects, when they obviously reflect little understanding on the socialist case.

I have asked to post surveys in my discussion comments and been stonewalled by moderators who simply ignore my request.  So not really a pure assumption on my part and I'm still not sure of the conclusion.  It sounds to me like only a priveledged class of people can post surveys here on your board.  How do I become part of the priviledged class?  It seems like your saying I can post a link to surveys but you expect everyone will ignore it.  Am I understanding you correctly? 

There's no priviliged class on the forum, however all users need to seek permission from the mods for surveys under Rule 3. Do not use the forums to send spam, advertisements, charitable appeals, solicitations, or other messages primarily intended to promote a particular product, service, campaign, website, organisation, venture, or event, unless it is relevant to the SPGB or its companion parties, without first obtaining permission from the moderators.Your posting are primarily about conducting a survey which you are assuming "is relevant to the SPGB".  I suspect you are finding that socialist are ignoring your links to the survey because in their opinion they are not relevant to the socialist case. Although you are seeking willing participants you are not actually conducting a survey on the forum.  If however, you start posting survey questions without seeking the mods permission you will be breaching the rules and be issued a warning.

[lindanesocialist]

moderator1 wrote:

There's no priviliged class on the forum,

Lol lol Ha ha . 

[Anonymous]

moderator1 wrote:

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

moderator1 wrote:

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

 I could spend some time making a survey that's easier to use and reaches a conclusion faster with less people minutes spent arguing and being surveyed. But I think surveys have been prohibited so that's a policy and and forum law that's imposed on the members without their consent. 

You are wrong in thinking surveys have been prohibited and that's the party policy or that its a "forum law that's imposed on the members without their consent".  This clear assertion is based on a pure assumption, followed by a false conclusion.The truth is the party have had several surveys over the years, but the fact of the matter is we run a yearly survey under the heading of, 'Conference voting paper' where the full membership of the party have an opportunity to agree or disagree on the various issues and problems of class struggle.What this means in practice is the party membership can as a whole conduct and organise its own surveys.  On the other hand, socialists welcome members of the working class conducting their own survey on socialist issues of the day.  But having said that, you will find that socialists are not keen on the presumption that we are willing participants in any such projects, when they obviously reflect little understanding on the socialist case.

I have asked to post surveys in my discussion comments and been stonewalled by moderators who simply ignore my request.  So not really a pure assumption on my part and I'm still not sure of the conclusion.  It sounds to me like only a priveledged class of people can post surveys here on your board.  How do I become part of the priviledged class?  It seems like your saying I can post a link to surveys but you expect everyone will ignore it.  Am I understanding you correctly? 

There's no priviliged class on the forum, however all users need to seek permission from the mods for surveys under Rule 3. Do not use the forums to send spam, advertisements, charitable appeals, solicitations, or other messages primarily intended to promote a particular product, service, campaign, website, organisation, venture, or event, unless it is relevant to the SPGB or its companion parties, without first obtaining permission from the moderators.Your posting are primarily about conducting a survey which you are assuming "is relevant to the SPGB".  I suspect you are finding that socialist are ignoring your links to the survey because in their opinion they are not relevant to the socialist case. Although you are seeking willing participants you are not actually conducting a survey on the forum.  If however, you start posting survey questions without seeking the mods permission you will be breaching the rules and be issued a warning.

Ok, thanks that clarifies things somewhat. 1) So what does it take to get moderator permission. because they just ignored my requests.  2) Who determines if somethign is relevant to SPGB and socialism?  Can I talk to the judge who is not a special class of persons.  Or maybe I need to write to the person who appointed that judge?  can I review and upvote or downvote that judge or petition for a different judge? Can I look at the judges ruling history and upvote or downvote my agreement with the judges ruling?  or is that not allowed for someone of my standing to judge somoeone of a moderators standing. Or is it allowed, but not supported, so technically, I can comment on a persons judgment but there's no place I could actually find the judgement history and no there's no way for me to comment on my approval or dissaproval?  (is it technically allowed, but practically impossible for me to do what I'm asking to do here because I do not possess the means and ability. if so can you give me a link to the right discussion location which seems to be the means required for producing an acceptable discussion of these questions ) Can you give me a link on where to discuss this if this is the wrong place for the question? 3) How do you distinguish between a survey question and just a question?  I assume it's allowed to ask any questions I feel are relevant to socialism here and ask for a reply.  I assume I can ask 3 questions here and ask for a reply from anyone who reads it and wants to reply.  I guess I've been calling that a survey.  What do you call it? 

[moderator1]

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

 Ok, thanks that clarifies things somewhat. 1) So what does it take to get moderator permission. because they just ignored my requests.  2) Who determines if somethign is relevant to SPGB and socialism?  Can I talk to the judge who is not a special class of persons.  Or maybe I need to write to the person who appointed that judge?  can I review and upvote or downvote that judge or petition for a different judge? Can I look at the judges ruling history and upvote or downvote my agreement with the judges ruling?  or is that not allowed for someone of my standing to judge somoeone of a moderators standing. Or is it allowed, but not supported, so technically, I can comment on a persons judgment but there's no place I could actually find the judgement history and no there's no way for me to comment on my approval or dissaproval?  (is it technically allowed, but practically impossible for me to do what I'm asking to do here because I do not possess the means and ability. if so can you give me a link to the right discussion location which seems to be the means required for producing an acceptable discussion of these questions ) Can you give me a link on where to discuss this if this is the wrong place for the question? 3) How do you distinguish between a survey question and just a question?  I assume it's allowed to ask any questions I feel are relevant to socialism here and ask for a reply.  I assume I can ask 3 questions here and ask for a reply from anyone who reads it and wants to reply.  I guess I've been calling that a survey.  What do you call it? 

1. To get the mods permission the survey must be relevant to the socialist case.  The mods have not received a request from you to conduct a survey on the forum.2. The mods determine what's relevant to socialism on the forum.  When you join the forum you agree to abide by the guidelines and rules.  You are free to comment on the rules in this thread or set up a thread on a specific rule you wish to comment on.  All moderators are appointed by the Executive Committee and the record of actions taken by the moderators are all here on the forum and part of the historical record.All users can complain about the mods decisions by PM, however do not post any complaints on the forum.  The rest of your questions are more rambles than questions3. A question is a question whether its in the form of a survey or a query.  You are allowed to ask any number of questions here which is relevant to socialism and request a reply on this fora.  You are not allowed to post "a survey" on the forum without the mods permission.

[Anonymous]

moderator1 wrote:

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

 Ok, thanks that clarifies things somewhat. 1) So what does it take to get moderator permission. because they just ignored my requests.  2) Who determines if somethign is relevant to SPGB and socialism?  Can I talk to the judge who is not a special class of persons.  Or maybe I need to write to the person who appointed that judge?  can I review and upvote or downvote that judge or petition for a different judge? Can I look at the judges ruling history and upvote or downvote my agreement with the judges ruling?  or is that not allowed for someone of my standing to judge somoeone of a moderators standing. Or is it allowed, but not supported, so technically, I can comment on a persons judgment but there's no place I could actually find the judgement history and no there's no way for me to comment on my approval or dissaproval?  (is it technically allowed, but practically impossible for me to do what I'm asking to do here because I do not possess the means and ability. if so can you give me a link to the right discussion location which seems to be the means required for producing an acceptable discussion of these questions ) Can you give me a link on where to discuss this if this is the wrong place for the question? 3) How do you distinguish between a survey question and just a question?  I assume it's allowed to ask any questions I feel are relevant to socialism here and ask for a reply.  I assume I can ask 3 questions here and ask for a reply from anyone who reads it and wants to reply.  I guess I've been calling that a survey.  What do you call it? 

1. To get the mods permission the survey must be relevant to the socialist case.  The mods have not received a request from you to conduct a survey on the forum.2. The mods determine what's relevant to socialism on the forum.  When you join the forum you agree to abide by the guidelines and rules.  You are free to comment on the rules in this thread or set up a thread on a specific rule you wish to comment on.  All moderators are appointed by the Executive Committee and the record of actions taken by the moderators are all here on the forum and part of the historical record.All users can complain about the mods decisions by PM, however do not post any complaints on the forum.  The rest of your questions are more rambles than questions3. A question is a question whether its in the form of a survey or a query.  You are allowed to ask any number of questions here which is relevant to socialism and request a reply on this fora.  You are not allowed to post "a survey" on the forum without the mods permission.

1) here's a copy of my request to post a survey made to the mods. I have still not recieved a response.Steve-SanFranci…21/10/2016 – 10:20pmCan I get your permission to post a survey in your forum? I'm designing a postcard mailer for SPGB and I want to ask SPGB community contributors to volunteer their time to choose their top favorite 3 postcards and 3 most hated postcards.  And then I want them to write their vote down for me in a reply post.I'd like to start a new thread that will have the subject and first post read. . .

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TOPIC: SPGB Direct action – Best Political Mailer Design Contest.  Dear SPGB community, Thanks for all your time recentlly spent helping me to understand you better.  I've designed some postcards intended for use by SPGB if you like them, and I want you to reply back with your approval or disaproval.  I was feeling creatively inspired to make an awsome campaign promotion and you at SPGB have helped me tremendously with brainstorming ideas for postcard covers. Now, I want to ask you, the SPGB community contributors to volunteer yout time and choose your top favorite 3 postcard designs and your 3 most hated postcards.  And then I want you to write your choices down for me in a reply post. here's the format for replies to cut and paste. My top 3 favorite postcard designs were.First Favorite:_______Second Favorite:_______________________Third Favorite: _________________________________ My 3 most hated on postcard designs wereJust plain stupid, the worst.: ________________________________Still pretty bad: ________________________________ Completely Offensive: ________________________________  Thanks, and let me know if you think the time you time you spend on doing this favor for me is of equal value to the time I've put into creating these postcards for you. Here's the link to the postcard mockup designs. . . https://goo.gl/8hfH91…. 2) can you give me links or tell me where in you're navigation I have to click to find the information you refered to?  It seems like they exist but they are not easiliy accesible.  (ps. if a socialist society has no property and all property is commonly owned, then what would marx say about commonly owned property that can only be found by a select class of people? and do you consider information to be subjecte to the same rules about property as tangible goods?) 3) that didn't translate into an answer.  this is a question about interpretation of rules and I've mentioned a specefic use case to apply the rules to.  What is the difference between a survey and questions has still not been answered sufficiently for me to know when you will judge a series of questions as a survey. Or do you have some unique definition of a survey you can share for me to better understand your application of the rules? 

[Anonymous]

What about a forum survey  to eliminate all these non socialist related issues? 

[moderator1]

Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

 1) here's a copy of my request to post a survey made to the mods. I have still not recieved a response.Steve-SanFranci…21/10/2016 – 10:20pmCan I get your permission to post a survey in your forum? I'm designing a postcard mailer for SPGB and I want to ask SPGB community contributors to volunteer their time to choose their top favorite 3 postcards and 3 most hated postcards.  And then I want them to write their vote down for me in a reply post.I'd like to start a new thread that will have the subject and first post read. . . 

My apologies for not replying sooner to your request for permission to post a survey on the forum.  Unfortunately, shortly after your request Mod3 was taken ill and subsequently rarely using his emails.  This has delayed a decision on your request.

[Author]

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