Marx, and the myth of his ‘Materialism’

[LBird]

Vin wrote:

LBird wrote:

But humans are not just 'matter': they are 'consciousness',It's Engels who went looking for 'creative matter', which is just another term for a divine creator which is not humanity.

Humans are creative matter

No, humans are the creative matter, Vin.We create our object through social theory and practice. The role of social consciousness is inescapable. Ideas, in a nutshell.

[Anonymous]

LBird wrote:

No, humans are the creative matter, Vin.

So matter creates. Matter is creative.

[LBird]

Vin wrote:

LBird wrote:

No, humans are the creative matter, Vin.

So matter creates. Matter is creative.

No, Vin, rocks do not create.That ideological belief, that you hold, comes from Engels. It is 'materialism', and focuses upon 'matter' (Kline mentions this attention to the noun 'matter', by 'materialists', but not by Marx, in his article – please have a read).Only human consciousness (material consciousness, ideal-material, subject-object, consciousness-being, mind-matter) produces our world, by theory and practice.If you stick with 'matter', 'materialism', Engels, you are losing half of the relationship. And, as Marx reminded us, that loss is 'the active side'.Without it, 'materialists' are forced to hide their 'active side' and pretend 'matter' itself is 'active'. Since it isn't, they have to substitute an 'active' element for humanity (ie., workers), and this 'active (non-democratic) side' is an elite (either social (in a 'conscious' party) or religious (in a god)).'Materialism' is the philosophy of an elite, and hence that of Leninists.

[DJP]

LBird wrote:

No, humans are the creative matter, Vin.

Vin wrote:

So matter creates. Matter is creative.

LBird wrote:

No, Vin, rocks do not create. 

So all matter is rocks?

[LBird]

DJP wrote:

LBird wrote:

No, humans are the creative matter, Vin.

Vin wrote:

So matter creates. Matter is creative.

LBird wrote:

No, Vin, rocks do not create. 

So all matter is rocks?

I wondered when you would be compelled to make your non-contribution.You're a physicalist and a materialist, DJP, so you believe that 'matter' determines our ideas. This robs a democratic society, like socialism, of its own power to determine knowledge, and places that power into the hands of an elite, who pretend to know 'what matter says'.Philosophically, you are a Leninist, notwithstanding your professed 'political' views. In any political battle with the democratic proletariat, you'll be compelled to support the elitist materialists (ie. Leninists), because they too pretend defer to 'matter'.Or do you agree with democratic control of physics and maths, and thus prove that I'm mistaken about your Engelsism?

[moderator1]

Reminder: 6. Do not make repeated postings of the same or similar messages to the same thread, or to multiple threads or forums (‘cross-posting’). Do not make multiple postings within a thread that could be consolidated into a single post (‘serial posting’). Do not post an excessive number of threads, posts, or private messages within a limited period of time (‘flooding’).

[DJP]

LBird wrote:

You're a physicalist and a materialist, DJP, so you believe that 'matter' determines our ideas. This robs a democratic society, like socialism, of its own power to determine knowledge, and places that power into the hands of an elite, who pretend to know 'what matter says'.Philosophically, you are a Leninist, notwithstanding your professed 'political' views. In any political battle with the democratic proletariat, you'll be compelled to support the elitist materialists (ie. Leninists), because they too pretend defer to 'matter'.

Ad hominem.Is all matter rocks?

[LBird]

moderator1 wrote:

Reminder: 6. Do not make repeated postings of the same or similar messages to the same thread, or to multiple threads or forums (‘cross-posting’). Do not make multiple postings within a thread that could be consolidated into a single post (‘serial posting’). Do not post an excessive number of threads, posts, or private messages within a limited period of time (‘flooding’).

But I'm forced to keep saying the same thing, because the SPGB members keep asking the same questions and ignoring my answers.DJP is back to his obsession with 'matter', and complaining that I'm 'being personal' when he's asked about his politics!Is this a site for critical political discussion, or  just a forum for the ignorant and misinformed to continue to delude themselves?Oh, yeah… and to continue to waste my time.

[LBird]

DJP wrote:

LBird wrote:

You're a physicalist and a materialist, DJP, so you believe that 'matter' determines our ideas. This robs a democratic society, like socialism, of its own power to determine knowledge, and places that power into the hands of an elite, who pretend to know 'what matter says'.Philosophically, you are a Leninist, notwithstanding your professed 'political' views. In any political battle with the democratic proletariat, you'll be compelled to support the elitist materialists (ie. Leninists), because they too pretend defer to 'matter'.

Ad hominem.Is all matter rocks?

LBird wrote:

Or do you agree with democratic control of physics and maths, and thus prove that I'm mistaken about your Engelsism?

You've had your chance, DJP.You're Leninist, out of Engels.This is not personal attack, but political analysis. You don't like talking about politics, because it will reveal your anti-democratic views.Since you think 'matter/physical' is not political (and thus can't be voted upon), you revert to your bourgeois obsession with 'things' (read: 'property'). You will not have democracy in socio-economic production, because that includes ideas as much as factory widgets.

[LBird]

Right, no more responses from me, unless it's questions/discussion about Kline, which is supposed to be the purpose of the thread.Have a happy new year, comrades.

[moderator1]

LBird wrote:

moderator1 wrote:

Reminder: 6. Do not make repeated postings of the same or similar messages to the same thread, or to multiple threads or forums (‘cross-posting’). Do not make multiple postings within a thread that could be consolidated into a single post (‘serial posting’). Do not post an excessive number of threads, posts, or private messages within a limited period of time (‘flooding’).

But I'm forced to keep saying the same thing, because the SPGB members keep asking the same questions and ignoring my answers.DJP is back to his obsession with 'matter', and complaining that I'm 'being personal' when he's asked about his politics!Is this a site for critical political discussion, or  just a forum for the ignorant and misinformed to continue to delude themselves?Oh, yeah… and to continue to waste my time.

A reminder is not directed at any poster in particular but all users.   

[Anonymous]

LBird wrote:

No, Vin, rocks do not create.

Does your argument depend solely on strawmen? I have never said rocks create.This is the way you make your posts sound like valid responses, when in fact they are not.  

[Anonymous]

LBird wrote:

Right, no more responses from me, unless it's questions/discussion about Kline, which is supposed to be the purpose of the thread.Have a happy new year, comrades.

Happy new year comrade, when you return I would be greatful if you could challenge my argument instead of one you have created for me.All the best 

[rodshaw]

Rocks are matter.Humans are matter.Rocks do not create.Humans do create.Therefore (and you can call me picky if you like), humans are a different kind of matter from rocks, a kind which embodies creativity.There's a certain amount of deliberate obfuscation going on in this thread, but so many seem to go that way eventually.Have an idealist-materialist new year one and all, and let's hope we material beings get nearer to creating socialism in 2016.

[Anonymous]

rodshaw wrote:

Therefore (and you can call me picky if you like), humans are a different kind of matter from rocks, a kind which embodies creativity.

but matter neverthelessThe point being that matter creates. Basic preimise of MCH

[Author]

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