Marx and Automation
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Alan, a CEO makes a change in business directions…he does so because of a false perception tells him so. Reagan use to make political economic decisions based on a psychic. Same thing.
Socially necessary labor-time is a myth. I mean how does a CEO determine his value/price. He dreams it up based on his own whims.
Just to nit-pick but the CEO himself does not determine his worth but the whole board of directors and more often than not some sort of appointed committee. https://www.forbes.com/sites/hbsworkingknowledge/2015/11/18/who-really-determines-ceo-salary-packages/#21f7bbf1a32bhttps://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/how-companies-decide-ceo-pay/530127/What does a CEO do in return for his generous remuneration? They do not in any real sense run the company, since big corporations are far too complicated to be managed by individuals. Rather, they concern themselves with the company as a profit business, often having little-detailed idea about what it actually produces, and give orders that others have to implement. If the share price keeps rising, irrespective of any medium- or long-term benefits to the company, then shareholders and directors are happy. And what is the main criteria to make a profit? Keep wages low.Of course, different national capitalists have different benchmarks. "Socially necessary labor-time is a myth." If after three days work you have produced sufficient value to replace your wages But if the workers in the factory down the road can reproduce the value of their wages in 2 days, while producing the same product, then one day of your work is not socially necessary, and you are working for a doomed company.ALB has answered this question on another thread.
Quote:The amount of socially necessary labour time in a commodity is not something that is, or can be, established mathematically. It's established by the market. Sometimes more is produced than the market requires; in which case the labour time involved in producing the unsold surplus is wasted and would not enter into your average (arithmetical mean). Also, it is not the cost of having produced a commodity that is relevant but the cost of reproducing it. As in most industries (mining and extraction are exceptions), with the introduction of more efficient machines or ways of organising production, this will tend to fall.You can read the whole exchange herehttps://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/what-really-snltThere are many other references for you to view, if you care to use the search function. I know this may require some effort but the answers should be helpful.
MBellemare wrote:Bijiou, you are a narrow-minded, conservative, out-of-date, block-head. The article you have read….is a slanderous one and is full of lies. It was orchestrated by those, who hate those that can make a living with their art and their writing. Nothing more can be said. The paper did print a retraction, months later. Bijiou, hiding behind a moniker, like a frightened little boy.I am so glad the paper printed a retraction, I couldn't believe that what the article implies would actually apply to you, i.e. that you are a attention seeking self publicist of very little talent. You would never have got that impression from the well thought out contributions you have made to this site. Funnily enough I have looked through the archive and cannot find the retraction you mentioned, be a sweetheart and post a link for me, I'm also surprised that they left the original article on line, you should have a word with them and get them to take the "slanderous(sic) article" off their site. If it is still up there people might get the impression that it is true, heaven forbid.p.s I'm still hoping you are going to explain how tariffs fit into your concept that prices can be set without reference to value.Anyway must sign off, pass on my regards to Alan, Wayne, Merill, Jay, Marie and of course not forgetting Little Jimmy, and keeping those "Crazy Horses" smoking up the sky.
MBellemare wrote:Bijiou, you are a narrow-minded, conservative, out-of-date, block-head. The article you have read….is a slanderous one and is full of lies. It was orchestrated by those, who hate those that can make a living with their art and their writing. Nothing more can be said. The paper did print a retraction, months later. Bijiou, hiding behind a moniker, like a frightened little boy.2nd warning: 7. You are free to express your views candidly and forcefully provided you remain civil. Do not use the forums to send abuse, threats, personal insults or attacks, or purposely inflammatory remarks (trolling). Do not respond to such messages.
Bijou Drains wrote:MBellemare wrote:Bijiou, you are a narrow-minded, conservative, out-of-date, block-head. The article you have read….is a slanderous one and is full of lies. It was orchestrated by those, who hate those that can make a living with their art and their writing. Nothing more can be said. The paper did print a retraction, months later. Bijiou, hiding behind a moniker, like a frightened little boy.I am so glad the paper printed a retraction, I couldn't believe that what the article implies would actually apply to you, i.e. that you are a attention seeking self publicist of very little talent. You would never have got that impression from the well thought out contributions you have made to this site. Funnily enough I have looked through the archive and cannot find the retraction you mentioned, be a sweetheart and post a link for me, I'm also surprised that they left the original article on line, you should have a word with them and get them to take the "slanderous(sic) article" off their site. If it is still up there people might get the impression that it is true, heaven forbid.p.s I'm still hoping you are going to explain how tariffs fit into your concept that prices can be set without reference to value.Anyway must sign off, pass on my regards to Alan, Wayne, Merill, Jay, Marie and of course not forgetting Little Jimmy, and keeping those "Crazy Horses" smoking up the sky.
1st warning: 7. You are free to express your views candidly and forcefully provided you remain civil. Do not use the forums to send abuse, threats, personal insults or attacks, or purposely inflammatory remarks (trolling). Do not respond to such messages.
Bijou, …I will have to get on that…to remove it since it has been gone for 6 years. In any event, it's kinda funny…and makes me look like an anarchist con man. Even though it's fake news. Lol
But hey…I don't think you have my best interest at hand, Bijou. And are more less not interested in the least about my research. So…you know…. you might want to go else where. More in line with your thinking. And I will do the same….as SPGB is not progressive, or forward-looking in the least, in my estimation. SPGB…is a dead horse…and everyone knows you can't beat a dead horse.
It appears to me that MBellemare is more intent on being moderated off the Forum, to claim censorship/martyrdom, rather than dealing, conclusively, with the constructive criticisms of his work at the beginning of the thread by Robin and others.Such as , https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/marx-and-automation#comment-41981https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/marx-and-automation?page=1#comment-42226https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/marx-and-automation?page=2#comment-42262https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/marx-and-automation?page=2#comment-42274https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/marx-and-automation?page=6#comment-42347https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/marx-and-automation?page=12#comment-42515
Quote:So, I say, forget the proletariat as a liberatory agent, and focus on magnifying a rabble, it is only when the proletariat liquidates its proletarianism, its proletarian nature, a nature constructed by capitalism, into a real revolutionary rabble, that real social change has the chance to blossom.)A narrow minded view of who constitutes the proletariat. Which will be the politically conscious immense majority. In favour of a rabble presumably to be led by advanced thinkers, rather than self led. It will not be a 'rabble' but the self led, conscious political act of a revolutionary class, who constitute the immense majority who understand, that capitalism can not be reformed or tinkered with, to bring real social equality, but must be replaced by a global, production for use, free access society, democratically administered by us all using delegatory democratic principles.
Quote:I like idea of the revolutionary rabble, which is class-less, taking members from all socio-economic stratums. It is the working population, in general, that has the possibility of being revolutionary, not the proletariat in and of itself. All members of the capitalist society, from all social stratums can belong to and take part in a revolutionary rabble, not just the proletariat.Seeming not to realise, arising from his lack of perception and his misconception of who constitutes the proletariat, there are only two classes in society.If one HAS TO work for a wage or a salary for the necessities of life one is a member of the working class. 90-95% of the population.
Quote:One last thing, I don't see class anymore, (I don't think it even exists) I see groups, affinity groups, from Goths, to Punks, to Mcdonald's employees, to car salesmens, activists, eco-activists, to Hipsters, to Hippies, to yuppies, to sport atheletes, to the super rich, to the moderately rich, to the average wealthy, to the below average wealthy, to the poor, to city employees (which I am), to teachers, to union-members, to educational-affinity-groups, to Marxist-groupings, to organized-religious-groupings etc…, each with their own forms of thought, dress, and actions.We have so many identities now, that class is seriously marginalized to the point of non-existence. The proletariat, that Marx saw, has disappeared into a vast jumble of microscopic groupings.A really laughable contribution that one. Taking trade unionists, and other workers, advertising market segments, with manufactured affinity groups, created and manipulated for the purpose of targeted demand creation and lumping then in along with the parasite class of rich and super rich, wealthy and moderately wealthy (what does that mean if they are several salary checks away from a food bank?) as representations of a potentially revolutionary rabble.No wonder he wouldn't answer the question I put to him.
Quote:A coalition with whom and for what purpose?The capitalist class only comprise 5-10% of the global population.It remains a matter of the immense majority overthrowing them in politically conscious action to establish the new society. Pandering to created identity groupings to exclude the class nature of the struggle, obscures the task in hand.
Most of you on this thread are FASCISTS, and truly ignorant, bitter morons, bemoaning the fact that you have amounted to absolutely nothing, or published anything of any value! I am please that like the chicken shits that you all are, I do not know your real names, arm-chair marxists. And I have answered all your queries…but you refuse to accept the answers. So from now on, every time you hear someone laughing, note that it is me laughing, laughing at a bunch of anonymous losers and spineless cowards, lost in the confines of 19th century failures.SPGB is the honorable term for fascism, a collection pool for idiots.Fuck YOu ALL!!!Anarchism, Now! Anarchism Forever!
MBellemare wrote:Most of you on this thread are FASCISTS, and truly ignorant, bitter morons, bemoaning the fact that you have amounted to absolutely nothing, or published anything of any value! I am please that like the chicken shits that you all are, I do not know your real names, arm-chair marxists. And I have answered all your queries…but you refuse to accept the answers. So from now on, every time you hear someone laughing, note that it is me laughing, laughing at a bunch of anonymous losers and spineless cowards, lost in the confines of 19th century failures.SPGB is the honorable term for fascism, a collection pool for idiots.Fuck YOu ALL!!!Anarchism, Now! Anarchism Forever!I think, MBellemare, youve just blown it now and completely lost any credbility and respect you might have had with this little tantrum of yours. To be honest, I'm more saddened than disgusted Im not quite sure what has gotten into you to respond in this manner – clearly there seems to be some sort of personal issues lurking in the background – but I dont propose to respond in any detail. There is little point.I will however take you up on just one point – your earlier accusation that I am "coward" for "hiding behind a moniker" rather than reveal my real name. Look, this is so silly I cant believe any intelligent person can come out with such daft comment. I am quite happy to reveal to you by real name – I am Robin Cox and I live in Spain – and the moniker I use was simply chosen because it matches the one I use on Facebook. Thats it. Its not like I have given the matter a second thought but you seem to want to read into people's actions all sorts of things which are really just a figment of your own imagination Im not quite sure why you think it so important to know the real identity of other people on ths forum – this is a site for exchanging political ideas , not a dating agency – but you should know that some people (it doesnt bother me, one way or the other) might have legitimate reasons for remaining anoymous, which I surely dont need to spell out to you. Try to be a bit more tactful in future, OK?
MBellemare wrote:Most of you on this thread are FASCISTS, and truly ignorant, bitter morons, bemoaning the fact that you have amounted to absolutely nothing, or published anything of any value! I am please that like the chicken shits that you all are, I do not know your real names, arm-chair marxists. And I have answered all your queries…but you refuse to accept the answers. So from now on, every time you hear someone laughing, note that it is me laughing, laughing at a bunch of anonymous losers and spineless cowards, lost in the confines of 19th century failures.SPGB is the honorable term for fascism, a collection pool for idiots.Fuck YOu ALL!!!Anarchism, Now! Anarchism Forever!It looks like you haven't taken your Prozac this morning, too many knockouts in this forum are affecting your mind, and you have lost control of the reins of your chariot, you are not hurting us, you are hurting yourselfYour so-called academic education is not helping you and it has not modified your dirty language, you're expressing yourself like a glorified street gangster, you are throwing mud on yourself. Buy Colgate or Crest, it might help you.Your academic arrogance is a sign of tumultuous personal problems and frustrations. There are many good peoples in this forum and in this party who have dedicated their lives to the cause of the working class, and there is no need to know their personal identity, what is important is the work that they are doing PD Take a crash course on Fascism because you do not know what you are talking about, and you do not know the real definition of fascism, in this forum we can have a debate with fascists, and in the past, we have had a debate with similar peoples, and with liberal
MBellemare wrote:No…*tankies* in North America has a mellenial spin, that is just super funny, which has been tied to old orthodox marxist-socialists, who somehow think the Soviet Union was not true marxism or communism. And/or it has been used to describe those orthodox marxists who hold on to the notion of socially necessary labor-time as somehow still valid and still applicable.You don't know what you are talking about, those are not Tankies, and they do not exist any longer, and the leaders and the model country that they supported do not exist either, it has an economic reconstructionYou are totally detached from the working class movement. I know about that movement because I was part of the Albanian tendency. Social necessary labour time has nothing to do with the Tankies, it was a label given to a group of Leninists
MBellemare wrote:Most of you on this thread are FASCISTS, and truly ignorant, bitter morons, bemoaning the fact that you have amounted to absolutely nothing, or published anything of any value! I am please that like the chicken shits that you all are, I do not know your real names, arm-chair marxists. And I have answered all your queries…but you refuse to accept the answers. So from now on, every time you hear someone laughing, note that it is me laughing, laughing at a bunch of anonymous losers and spineless cowards, lost in the confines of 19th century failures.SPGB is the honorable term for fascism, a collection pool for idiots.Fuck YOu ALL!!!Anarchism, Now! Anarchism Forever!3rd and final warning: 7. You are free to express your views candidly and forcefully provided you remain civil. Do not use the forums to send abuse, threats, personal insults or attacks, or purposely inflammatory remarks (trolling). Do not respond to such messages.Any further breach of the rules within the next 30 days entails an indefinite suspension for this user.
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