Marx and Automation
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LBird wrote:I'm a bit confused now, twc.I can only try again – twc, do you agree that Marx and Engels were talking about 'social production', and not 'matter'?
Your not kidding there. Why not go and read Marx and Engels, you would be less confused. Or "you" "could" just "explain" the "truth" of the "matter" – what "you" "mean" by "matter" and "social production" Is ther any matter involved in social production? wooops I mean "matter" and "social production"
This question is to everyone.Let’s say that we have got rid of capitalist society.Let’s say that new society needs some wood.New society must fell and cut trees into boards.Next new society must dry boards.The new society must choose.Will they 1) air dry or 2) kiln dry?How will they choose?There’s no need to answer that they will choose by votes.In that case, I will just need to ask how voter will choose.I do not ask if they will choose 1 or 2.But I do ask how they choose.
Alan Kerr wrote:This question is to everyone.Let’s say that we have got rid of capitalist society.Let’s say that new society needs some wood.New society must fell and cut trees into boards.Next new society must dry boards.The new society must choose.Will they 1) air dry or 2) kiln dry?How will they choose?There’s no need to answer that they will choose by votes.In that case, I will just need to ask how voter will choose.I do not ask if they will choose 1 or 2.But I do ask how they choose.Good question. The decision reached will be based on what production facilities they have available in order to dry the wood. If no kiln is available they will have to resort to air drying. However, if a kiln is available and there's no rush to dry the boards they could decide for nature to take its course through air drying.The decision arrived at will be based on practicality and the pragmatic use of available resources and the urgency or priorities for drying the boards. There will be no need for a vote when the situation itself will determine the outcome. In short, we will decide when and if its appropriate and acceptable to use technology in a given situation.
Quote:The decision arrived at will be based on practicality and the pragmatic use of available resources and the urgency or priorities for drying the boards. There will be no need for a vote when the situation itself will determine the outcome. In short, we will decide when and if its appropriate and acceptable to use technology in a given situation.What no ballot? I wanted to vote.
Brian wrote:The decision reached will be based on … There will be no need for a vote when the situation itself will determine the outcome.[my bold]I'm not sure how 'the situation itself' will obviate the need for conscious human activity, Brian.
Brian wrote:In short, we will decide when and if its appropriate and acceptable to use technology in a given situation.[my bold]Ahhh… so, it's not 'the situation itself', then?So, 'who' is the 'we' that do 'decide'?And, 'how' does this 'we' make a decision, if not by democratic means ("no need for a vote")?
LBird wrote:Ahhh… so, it's not 'the situation itself', then?So, 'who' is the 'we' that do 'decide'?And, 'how' does this 'we' make a decision, if not by democratic means ("no need for a vote")?"What" "bull" is "this"? So what do "you" "mean" by "democratic" "means" ? And a "vote" What does it mean to a Stalinist like yourself??Pray please tell "us" how "you" would carry out a "vote"? In the old "Stalinist" tradition I "suppose"?
LBird wrote:Brian wrote:The decision reached will be based on … There will be no need for a vote when the situation itself will determine the outcome.[my bold]I'm not sure how 'the situation itself' will obviate the need for conscious human activity, Brian.
Brian wrote:In short, we will decide when and if its appropriate and acceptable to use technology in a given situation.[my bold]Ahhh… so, it's not 'the situation itself', then?So, 'who' is the 'we' that do 'decide'?And, 'how' does this 'we' make a decision, if not by democratic means ("no need for a vote")?
I suspect that when you admit that "you are not sure how the situation itself will obviate the need for conscious human activity" you are not being entirely honest and simply trolling. Because this admitance is in all honesty simply saying you don't understand the situation. Pull the other one!Indeed by understanding the situation you would be fully aware that the outcome is a conscious human activity where the voluntary associated producers have decided that given all the relevant factors involved they have to determine what is appropriate and acceptable to arrive at a given outcome.The 'we' that do 'decide' is everything and everybody involved in drying the boards. And that involves the facts of the situation which includes how the boards are dried and the urgency on drying the boards. Indeed all they will be doing is applying the basic principles of Project Management (look it up). Which may or may not require a vote to be taken for it depends on the "situation".Anything else you are not sure about?
Brian wrote:I suspect that when you admit that "you are not sure how the situation itself will obviate the need for conscious human activity" you are not being entirely honest and simply trolling. Because this admitance is in all honesty simply saying you don't understand the situation. Pull the other one!Indeed by understanding the situation you would be fully aware that the outcome is a conscious human activity where the voluntary associated producers have decided that given all the relevant factors involved they have to determine what is appropriate and acceptable to arrive at a given outcome.The 'we' that do 'decide' is everything and everybody involved in drying the boards. And that involves the facts of the situation which includes how the boards are dried and the urgency on drying the boards. Indeed all they will be doing is applying the basic principles of Project Management (look it up). Which may or may not require a vote to be taken for it depends on the "situation".Anything else you are not sure about?[my bold]Yeah, I'm not sure why you can't read what you write."the situation itself" is not "understanding the situation".'itself' excludes 'understanding', whereas 'understanding' includes 'understanding'.Anything else you are not sure about, including you own thoughts?And I note that your chosen political method is the well-known (and despised) bourgeois "basic principles of Project Management", which conspicuously don't include 'democracy' as a 'basic principle'.Isn't there anyone in your party prepared to defend the 'basic principles of Democratic Socialism', rather than serve as cheerleaders for bourgeois ideology, like PM? (look it up, as ideology)
LBird wrote:Isn't there anyone in your party prepared to defend the 'basic principles of Democratic Socialism', rather than serve as cheerleaders for bourgeois ideology, like PM? (look it up, as ideology)The SPGB's definition of "democracy" is well know and we have expounded the same for more than 100 years. READ some of our literatture!! Instead of attacking your own strawmen why not explain : What is "your" "definition" of "democracy"? "How" would "it" work in 'practice'?Let's "take" "homes" as an "example.". How would "your" "democracy" "work" in "creating" homes for "all" "thanks"
LBird wrote:Brian wrote:The decision reached will be based on … There will be no need for a vote when the situation itself will determine the outcome.[my bold]I'm not sure how 'the situation itself' will obviate the need for conscious human activity, Brian.
Brian wrote:In short, we will decide when and if its appropriate and acceptable to use technology in a given situation.[my bold]Ahhh… so, it's not 'the situation itself', then?So, 'who' is the 'we' that do 'decide'?And, 'how' does this 'we' make a decision, if not by democratic means ("no need for a vote")?
In honour of the great L Bird, they could choose two short planks
It is 'we', the people self organised in socialism, with or without a vote deciding locally, regionally and worldwide practical solutions. It is time to dump this Leninist troll.
Project Management also calls for choosing.The new society must still choose.How will they choose? Question #386This is really the same question as #289Crusoe also had to choose.For help see this month’s Socialist Standard.But don’t be slow.On the amount of dithering here, average worker will decide that the new society must descend into famine, dictatorship and Lenin’s New Economic Policy.
Alan Kerr wrote:Project Management also calls for choosing.The new society must still choose.How will they choose? Question #386This is really the same question as #289Crusoe also had to choose.For help see this month’s Socialist Standard.But don’t be slow.On the amount of dithering here, average worker will decide that the new society must descend into famine, dictatorship and Lenin’s New Economic Policy.There is no need to choose one or the other, they just manufacture kiln dried and air dried tmber and then monitor which ones people choose to use in their different construction projects. Then as the stock of either or both begins to diminish the planks are replaced with new stock, etc. etc. If there is little or no demand for either, then the stocks are not replaced and productiv resources are shifted to something that people want.
Matt wrote:It is 'we', the people self organised in socialism, with or without a vote deciding locally, regionally and worldwide practical solutions. It is time to dump this Leninist troll.He is not the only troll that we have around here. This forum was created in order to educate and orient new workers who want to know about the Socialist Party, but this place is becoming a cockfight and we are sending invitation to a bunch of reactionaries and anti-socialists to participate in this forum.This thread about Marx and automation has been turned into a Gumbo soup, we have a discussion about Botany, Zoology, Business Administration, Democracy, Engelsians, but nothing about topics that will attract the attention of the working class.This thread about Marx and automation has been proven that the thesis is wrong too, there is no need to discuss it anymore. We have proven that it is a shitty theory and it does not have any application in the real worldThe world is falling apart and we are trying to prove that 'Engels was wrong, the people in Texas, in Miami, and Puerto Rico are floating in the water and we are not saying anything. What is happening to the Socialist Party? Are we losing our perspective?
Use your brains. L Bird wants to turn all the topics of this forum into his favourite little horse that he wants to ride on. We are tired about the same horseshit about Engels and Democracy. Do not pay attention to his trolling, let him get fried in his own sauce. Peoples who are real defenders and supporters of the Socialist Party are thrown out, by the meantime, the trolls are kept in the forum, and this is happening in all the companion parties of the World Socialist Movement. If we continue like this we are going to end like the Socialist Labor Party of America
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