Marx and Automation

[Alan Kerr]

@MBellemare1) Michel we are getting the picture of how you see the world. But you answer a question which I did not ask. You answer this question.“@Alan Kerr, So who or what is moving labor around in order to keep us alive?”I did not ask that.Sorry but you do need to get the question.We have private ownership of the means of production. No one owner knows what other owners are doing. So I asked you this.“No Michel,“You need to show who or what is shifting labour from where we have too much, to where we have not enough first. That’s before you argue as if the market is no longer doing that job.“When were you thinking of showing this?”Not for the first time your answer is rather about individual motive.But see how I ask of total labour. It’s a social question. Can you answer?…2) It’s not that I’m rushing you at all. But also did you miss a question here?https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/marx-and-automation?page=28#comment-43041

[Alan Kerr]

@LBirdI did read both Marx and Engels. I do not see that you’re right. 

[LBird]

Alan Kerr wrote:

@LBirdI did read both Marx and Engels. I do not see that you’re right. 

Well, I've long since realised that Engelsian 'materialists' will read both Engels and Marx from their Engelsian perspective, and giving quotes containing Marx's words won't have any effect on their 'materialist' beliefs.I presume that you also, as do the 'materialists', like Lenin, identify the 'unified-being' Marx-Engels as the source of your estimation of 'rightness'?In case I'm doing you a disservice, and you're not an Engelsian, I could give you some further details – but it would be a waste of my time and yours, if you self-identify as an Engelsian.Just let me know your ideological perspective, if you wish to continue. I'm a Democratic Communist and a Marxist.

[moderator1]

Reminder: 2. The forums proper are intended for public discussion. Personal messages between participants should be sent via private message or by e-mail.

[Anonymous]

Marcos wrote:

Go ahead and do it. I do not care, I am not going to send any personal message, and I am not going to make any appeal either, this party  is supposely to be open . That is the reason why the Stalinists from  the World Socialist Party of US threw me out from their personal private forum,acting like cowards,  because they want to keep it  as a secret society. I just told tjhem the true in front of their faces:. That party is dead, it does not exist as a political organization,  they are just seating in their rocking chairs while the world is falling apart,  and they are a bunch of nationalists and xenophobics. A party control by one person, it is like a central committee. I would say the same thing in this forum, I do not believe  in secrecy

This comment does not warrant a suspension. It is a view held by more than one member.  The moderator should not have the power to silence such opinions  and to discipline party members. It makes us appear to be intolerant of  criticism from our own members and gives too much power to one member. Marcos – a long term very knowledgeable comrade –  should be reinstated immediately and  Mod should stop debating with trolls and spammers and get rid of them instead.PS: Moderation is messing up the forum again by reposting long posts with WARNINGS. 

[Anonymous]

LBird wrote:

Just let me know your ideological perspective, if you wish to continue. I'm a Democratic Communist and a Marxist.

 Your ideology is revealed by your view of human nature. .Life without socially organised violence and force would be nasty,  brutish, and short and would lead to "a war of all against all" It's all in our genes, right?Your as much a communist as Thomas Hobbes or have you changed your mind about the allegedl necessity of socially organised violence??

[Alan Kerr]

@LBirdThank you,This matters for this discussion Marx and Automation and Michel Luc Bellemare. I thought I made it clear how I agree with The Socialist Preamble to the SPGB Object.PreambleCapitalist ownership is a hindrance to production.The small capitalist enterprise is a hindrance to production compared to that of the big capitalist.The big capitalist enterprise is a hindrance to production compared to Socialist Production.That’s the same view which Lenin rejected in practice.Lenin thought that backward Russia alone 1918 could skip capitalist steps and move to Socialist Production.Engels 1) saw how the Russian Revolution was on its way 2) took the same view as here in The Socialist Preamble.The class struggle depends on economic steps.Engels was a thinker who came to this way to think independently. 

[LBird]

Alan Kerr wrote:

@LBirdThank you,This matters for this discussion Marx and Automation and Michel Luc Bellemare. ….The class struggle depends on economic steps.Engels was a thinker who came to this way to think independently. 

No, "the class struggle depends on" conscious activity by the proletariat. If, by 'economic', you mean 'social production', then you agree with Marx. But if by 'economic' you mean 'matter', then you agree with Engels.Engels didn't understand Marx, and it was Engels who created what we now know as 'Marxism'. Engels certainly 'came to this way of thinking idependently' of Marx – who was dead, when Engels created 'Marxism'.

[LBird]

It seems to me that a thread entitled 'Marx and Automation' should have at least some reference to the question of 'Automation for who?'.Marx was interested in social production, conscious revolutionary activity by the proletariat, engaged in a democratic political process of self-development.Thus, with Marx, we must ask for whose needs, interests and purposes any posited 'automation' is referring to.'Automation' can only refer to the 'needs for automation of the workers', the 'interests in automation by the workers', and the 'conscious purposes intended for automation by workers'.Put simply, it must be 'automation for us' (not 'automation for the bourgeoisie'). There is no asocial, ahistoric, 'automation', an 'automation in itself'.

[moderator1]

Reminder: 6. Do not make repeated postings of the same or similar messages to the same thread, or to multiple threads or forums (‘cross-posting’). Do not make multiple postings within a thread that could be consolidated into a single post (‘serial posting’). Do not post an excessive number of threads, posts, or private messages within a limited period of time (‘flooding’).

[Bijou Drains]

Marcos wrote:

Alan Kerr wrote:

@Steve-San FranciscoWho or what is shifting total sunlight around in a way that keeps trees alive?“A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"(Stephen Hawking’s book A Brief History of Time)At least the little old lady did give an answer.If not the market then who or what is shifting total labour around in a way that keeps us alive?

We are shifting from social sciences into Botany, Agronomy,  and Zoology

message to Moderator 1can you explain how the original post relates to the title of this discussion, marx and Automation. As pointed out by Marcos, the posting had nothing to do with the thread title, yet no action was takenagainst the posters, yet later posts wchich diverge ended up with bans from the forum. I for one would like some degree of consistancy in the moderation of this forum!!!

[moderator1]

Tim Kilgallon wrote:

Marcos wrote:

Alan Kerr wrote:

@Steve-San FranciscoWho or what is shifting total sunlight around in a way that keeps trees alive?“A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"(Stephen Hawking’s book A Brief History of Time)At least the little old lady did give an answer.If not the market then who or what is shifting total labour around in a way that keeps us alive?

We are shifting from social sciences into Botany, Agronomy,  and Zoology

message to Moderator 1can you explain how the original post relates to the title of this discussion, marx and Automation. As pointed out by Marcos, the posting had nothing to do with the thread title, yet no action was takenagainst the posters, yet later posts wchich diverge ended up with bans from the forum. I for one would like some degree of consistancy in the moderation of this forum!!!

1st warning: : 2. The forums proper are intended for public discussion. Personal messages between participants should be sent via private message or by e-mail.

[Bijou Drains]

moderator1 wrote:

Tim Kilgallon wrote:

Marcos wrote:

Alan Kerr wrote:

@Steve-San FranciscoWho or what is shifting total sunlight around in a way that keeps trees alive?“A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"(Stephen Hawking’s book A Brief History of Time)At least the little old lady did give an answer.If not the market then who or what is shifting total labour around in a way that keeps us alive?

We are shifting from social sciences into Botany, Agronomy,  and Zoology

message to Moderator 1can you explain how the original post relates to the title of this discussion, marx and Automation. As pointed out by Marcos, the posting had nothing to do with the thread title, yet no action was takenagainst the posters, yet later posts wchich diverge ended up with bans from the forum. I for one would like some degree of consistancy in the moderation of this forum!!!

1st warning: : 2. The forums proper are intended for public discussion. Personal messages between participants should be sent via private message or by e-mail.

 

[Alan Kerr]

@LBirdYour comment goes beyond (adds to) SPGB Object and Principles. And yet your comment still does not go as far as The Socialist Preamble. Will you go as far as The Socialist Preamble?With The Socialist Preamble, we have a way to explain. If The Preamble is wrong then please explain. Please explain, for instance, the rise of automation. Can you do that and show where the Preamble has got it wrong? 

[LBird]

Alan Kerr wrote:

@LBirdYour comment goes beyond (adds to) SPGB Object and Principles. And yet your comment still does not go as far as The Socialist Preamble. Will you go as far as The Socialist Preamble?With The Socialist Preamble, we have a way to explain. If The Preamble is wrong then please explain. Please explain, for instance, the rise of automation. Can you do that and show where the Preamble has got it wrong? 

I'm not a member of the SPGB, Alan, so I'm not bound by its ideological beliefs, whether expressed formally in its 'Object and Principles', or expressed infomally in its adherence to Engels' 'materialism'.Any discussion of 'Marx and Automation' has to have some idea about Marx's views, and discuss just 'who' any 'automation' is for. 'Automation' is not simply about 'machines', but about social production, and who benefits. In a class society like ours, there is 'automation-for-the-bourgeoisie' and 'automation-for-the-workers', and discussions about 'automation' alone simply ignore Marx's views.That's where Marx comes in – his ideas about 'social production', historical conditions, and class struggle.

[Author]

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